DI Level Control - Necessary? New Poll

[Sav'nBass]

In years of playing and FOH sound duties, i've never needed it. In fact, the fewer the number of things the guy on stage has to monkey with (that have virtually no impact on tone) the better.

Yeah that's my take. At one point I thought it was necessary but IMO just having a solid line out that is switchable pre or post EQ is best in the long run.

 

[seanm]

Yeah that's my take. At one point I thought it was necessary but IMO just having a solid line out that is switchable pre or post EQ is best in the long run.

Not picking on Sav'nBass, but it just shows how everybody has different requirements. I have used the level control, but a pre/post switch is useless to me. I set the pre switch nine years ago and have never touched it since. I want to be free to use the EQ to get the stage sound right, I don't want to have to worry that I am messing with the FOH sound.

 

[richtea]

I have a Behringer Eurodesk, and the day I am able to replace it, I'm going to take it outside and drive a stake through it's heart. Yes, I mean that literally. Railroad spike directly between channels 6 and 7. That being said, even that POS can accept hot line level signal in it's xlr inputs, you just have to run the head amp all the way down.

Yeah me too, and I hear you re; the stake in the heart thing, (mine is defiantly possessed).
The reason I have it is its CHEAP and does the job, kind of. We play a couple of rowdy clubs and when some drunken tart decides to throw beer on her cheating boyfriend and misses him and hits the desk, there won’t be tears just a polite round of applause.

 

[Kwesi]

It's nice to have if you're doing everything yourself. When I use my amp for my Youtube videos (I only did on a few) I preferred controlling the input from my amp as opposed to the audio interface because the taper was smoother.

Also, on stage, it's nice to be able to get a little bit more volume without having to worry whether or not the soundman is gonna freak on you.

 

[JimWasHere]

Yeah me too, and I hear you re; the stake in the heart thing, (mine is defiantly possessed).
The reason I have it is its CHEAP and does the job, kind of. We play a couple of rowdy clubs and when some drunken tart decides to throw beer on her cheating boyfriend and misses him and hits the desk, there won’t be tears just a polite round of applause.

Gimme a beer, I'll throw it myself

 

[richtea]

Gimme a beer, I'll throw it myself

It’s a shame we are on different continents. We could get together and film a eurodesk serial killer slasher/snuff movie. “Silence of the eurodesks” or something.

 

[Wrilley]

I voted for adding it as a feature. My thinking in terms of marketing is this.

A customer is A/Bing your amp and another, in the features list you're missing a DI level control. Is it a bell and whistle feature? Maybe, but maybe not in their mind. Since it's a perceived "control" it sounds more necessary than it perhaps is.

Also, and I'm guilty of this, there's that little "what if" voice in the back of your head. "I'd never use that feature anyway," you tell yourself. "But what if there's ONE time where it's critical?" says the whatif voice. "Damn it, give me the one with the level control." Sigh. Such a control freak :/

Edit:

Also, not everyone knows about attenuator suppositories, I know I didn't

 

[Son of Bovril]

...Can anyone else think of anything else that phantom with hurt?

Yes, My Avalon U5... My SWR Workingman head...

Actually you would be surprised how many DI's on the back of bass amps are not designed to handle phantom power, especially in the case where a desk runs global phantom power, which sometimes means that individual channels get more than the 48V or whatever it is meant to be

IMO an amp DI MUST be able to handle phantom power, because you just can't always trust the desks and engineers, or at least I can't!

 

[12bass]

Agree that the D.I. must be able to safely handle phantom power. Also consider pre/post necessary. If the EQ on the amp sounds great, then that's something worth sending to the house. Other times pre-EQ is better.

 

[Matthijs]

kinda like an eden head that has so much eq but sounds best set flat

Ouch! I think I would feel naked on stage without my eden eq, but I keep it flat 95% of the time. Would I have bought the amp without that EQ? no way!

 

[Munjibunga]

Not many amps have them, but I think they're important. If the signal out of the DI is so hot that the input gain on the board has to be near zero, it'd be pretty handy to be able to lose some gain at the amp's DI.

 

[joelb79]

If your amp is going to have gain structure that allows for massive boosting, EQ or otherwise, I would say yes. When your Pre-gain can add +10db, and if there was a chance (pre/post) that the EQ could effect the DI output, then you can have up to +30db of gain easily. I would say it quickly becomes necessary depending on where the DI output is tapped.

And +1 to what Munjibunga said about the sound board having to go very low to handle an amp DI. It makes a sound tech prefer a DI box, and makes your Hi-tech amp look a little suspicious to those types.

 

[JimWasHere]

Yes, My Avalon U5... My SWR Workingman head...

Actually you would be surprised how many DI's on the back of bass amps are not designed to handle phantom power, especially in the case where a desk runs global phantom power, which sometimes means that individual channels get more than the 48V or whatever it is meant to be

IMO an amp DI MUST be able to handle phantom power, because you just can't always trust the desks and engineers, or at least I can't!

Question still stands... How does it hurt them? I know how it hurts a ribbon mic, I understand the mechanics behind it, and I've seen it happen, but so far everything else smells like rumor. Asking it directly, do you know it will hurt it, or did soemone else who may not have been right tell you that?

 

[BurningSkies]

Question still stands... How does it hurt them? I know how it hurts a ribbon mic, I understand the mechanics behind it, and I've seen it happen, but so far everything else smells like rumor. Asking it directly, do you know it will hurt it, or did soemone else who may not have been right tell you that?

You may have missed Andy's reply to your question:

DI's really should be protected against the negative or damaging effects of phantom power. Many manufacturer's products are (all of our's are fully protected to 52 volts) but unfortunately (and I really don't know why) some still are not protected. It pays to get this info directly from the manufacturer.

I've indeed heard of people frying their amp's DI (and I suspect it could be worse) when a DI isn't transformer isolated or doesn't have suitable protection. 48v of improperly applied voltage to your amp can't be a great thing unless it was designed to take it. I've heard about people with dead amps from this, but I don't know if that's reality.

 

[JimWasHere]

You may have missed Andy's reply to your question:

Nope, didn't miss it... I'm asking how it hurts it. What happens? What exactly gets fried? Until someone can answer that, I'm gonna stay curious


I can understand how an active DI could get fried by way too much phantom, but would be surprised if that were really the case with a U5... but (if I understand all this correctly) The DI in an instrument amplifier or preamp should be an equivalent to a passive di, which is essentially just a few wires and a transformer. I've never heard of a passive DI getting fried by phantom.

I really mean it, not trying to be all argumentative, I'm curious as to how it would fry stuff.

It’s a shame we are on different continents. We could get together and film a eurodesk serial killer slasher/snuff movie. “Silence of the eurodesks” or something.

I laughed really hard at this, and someone across the room looked at me like I was crazy... Just made it that much better.

 

[Jazzdogg]

How about a simple pad switch? I never have a need for a variable level but I sometimes knock it down at soundman's request. Simple 10db pad switch would solve all scenarios for me personally.

+1 Mic level and line level

 

[agedhorse]

Nope, didn't miss it... I'm asking how it hurts it. What happens? What exactly gets fried? Until someone can answer that, I'm gonna stay curious

It depends entirely on the DI circuit... some are inherently protected (transformer) though there is a very notable exception and that's a center tapped output transformer with the center tap connected to pin 1 (very bad design practice). There's the balanced (BTL) drive that has inadequate CD blocking and/or bleeding (a common design oversight on older and lower end products), and there's the servo type outputs that may not have adequate DC isolation in the feedback/feed forward paths... though the servo outputs are not all that common, and they are more often used in pro audio, they are a bit tricky to design and manufacture at low cost because of the feed-forward gain adaptation of the servo. There are also some circuits that will latch up with the application of phantom power... the most common one that I know of is the old Mackie 1202 and 1402 consoles used as submixers... they can latch up with phantom.

 

[will33]

Roger, I didn't pick a choice in your poll again because there is no in between choice. My own personal situation is probably not that common as when our band does full PA gigs, it's usually my PA with me running it from stage. For whatever reason, most of my amps DI "seem" to run a "little" hot compared to other stuff because the DI's are almost always connected to the pre gain and the amps simply sound better with the gains set higher. Amps with an adjustable DI allow me to set the amp where it sounds best, then roll back the DI a bit to get more wiggle room at the board. Many of mine don't have adjustable DI, so I just set the board gain lower, that's all. It's not a problem either way.

I would think a simple mic/line switch is all that's "needed" with a good DI. Being immune to phantom power is a must. From a sales perspective, yes, some guys might make another choice because the pot's not there, whether they needed it or not. Perception is reality ya know. I also think in the case of most of these people, you could include the knob, not even connect any wires to it, and they wouldn't know the difference.

 

[JimWasHere]

It depends entirely on the DI circuit... some are inherently protected (transformer) though there is a very notable exception and that's a center tapped output transformer with the center tap connected to pin 1 (very bad design practice). There's the balanced (BTL) drive that has inadequate CD blocking and/or bleeding (a common design oversight on older and lower end products), and there's the servo type outputs that may not have adequate DC isolation in the feedback/feed forward paths... though the servo outputs are not all that common, and they are more often used in pro audio, they are a bit tricky to design and manufacture at low cost because of the feed-forward gain adaptation of the servo. There are also some circuits that will latch up with the application of phantom power... the most common one that I know of is the old Mackie 1202 and 1402 consoles used as submixers... they can latch up with phantom.

Well, now I can move on to the next thing to be curious about Thanks!

 

[R Baer]

Roger, I didn't pick a choice in your poll again because there is no in between choice. My own personal situation is probably not that common as when our band does full PA gigs, it's usually my PA with me running it from stage. For whatever reason, most of my amps DI "seem" to run a "little" hot compared to other stuff because the DI's are almost always connected to the pre gain and the amps simply sound better with the gains set higher. Amps with an adjustable DI allow me to set the amp where it sounds best, then roll back the DI a bit to get more wiggle room at the board...

Will, I just wanted to keep the poll very simple. Basically, do you use this feature on an amp, or not? So, IMO, you clearly fit into the the first category of those that do use their DI levels. If you factor in the number of respondents that don't realize what this control even does, then the numbers are about 50/50.

Of course, as Andy has pointed out, the importance of this control has a lot to do with how the DI is set up in the first place. In the case of the GB gear, that offers a line level signal that may be too hot for some consoles, it makes sense for them to include a mic level as well. On an amp with a mic level DI, it may not be as necessary.