DI options

[bass12]

I had several soundman complain about the low output level with my JDI (using a fairly low output active bass). I started using a J48 and have since had no issues.

 

[agedhorse]

Be careful with some class-D amps when taking the signal off the speaker out with a Countryman Type 85. Depending on the amp doing that can result in damage to the amp. @agedhorse had an explanation of why that is in another thread which I’ll try to locate.

Correct, many class D amp's speaker outputs are not ground referenced and when pin 1 is connected with the input the inverting output of the power amp is shorted directly to the console's signal grounding network which is not designed for this kind of current. The output of the amp is not designed to drive a short circuit either.

When you plug in to a passive transformer based DI, there is something called insertion loss. So a passive bass combined with a passive DI will have a lower signal level that an active bass would. The issue is, how much lower and does it have to be cranked up too much at the mixing board to compensate. Some passive basses do better than others. An active DI has a gain stage to boost the instrument signal level before it hits the DI transformer to compensate for the transformer’s losses. Some argue that that gain stage affects the tone. It really depends on the design.

As you said, try it and see how your passive bass and passive DI sound together.

Let's make this more accurate. Insertion loss (a true loss) in any quality transformer is very low, BUT there is a transform ratio that is responsible for converting the high impedance signal to low impedance. This step-down of voltage results in a step up of available current which is necessary to drive a lower impedance load. Most DI passive transformers are around 6:1 ratio, and a lot of active DI's use the same transformers but buffer the drive signal so that the high impedance of a passive bass has a lower impedance and looks just like an active bass. Most active DI's have no voltage gain in the buffer, the active electronics are just an impedance translator circuit.

I like the JDI for the way it connects to a speaker signal in parallel, and for the way it has no active circuitry to worry about.
With the Countryman I have to keep a 9V handy in case phantom power is not available. (And while on 9V be careful plugging & unplugging from the "input" jack - it will send a loud "pop" through the XLR. Most PA owners really hate that.)
I did a bunch of testing and found my JDI sounds noticeably worse with my passive basses going straight in. (Less treble, not as even, just kind of "stale" overall.) It would of course be better than nothing in a pinch, but I would definitely prefer to insert a good active buffer circuit before it (onboard pre, outboard pre, rack pre, amp, etc) or use the Countryman

See my above explanation for why.

 

[NKBassman]

Be careful with some class-D amps when taking the signal off the speaker out with a Countryman Type 85. Depending on the amp doing that can result in damage to the amp. @agedhorse had an explanation of why that is in another thread which I’ll try to locate.

Yes true. But since we’re talking about a tube head here it’s ok to use a speaker DI.

 

[40Hz]

Yes true. But since we’re talking about a tube head here it’s ok to use a speaker DI.

Fair enough.

I use my Countryman off tge speaker out with my small tube amps all the time. I’m not all that chuffed about chancing it with my class-D amps however, since I don’t know enough about their internals to know if I’m at risk or not.

My other feeling (possibly wrong) is that if the speaker outs on an amp are Speakon jacks, then it’s probably wisest to only plug them into a device that has Speakon inputs.

 

[NKBassman]

Fair enough.

I use my Countryman off tge speaker out with my small tube amps all the time. I’m not all that chuffed about chancing it with my class-D amps however, since I don’t know enough about their internals to know if I’m at risk or not.

My other feeling (possibly wrong) is that if the speaker outs on an amp are Speakon jacks, then it’s probably wisest to only plug them into a device that has Speakon inputs.

There’s no real point using a speaker DI off a Class D head anyway, as far as I understand it. The idea being to capture character from the power amp section of a tube head. If a Class D amp is designed for clean power amplification, then you get no tonal benefits from the power amp , and a preamp DI out would be all you need.

 

[40Hz]

There’s no real point using a speaker DI off a Class D head anyway, as far as I understand it. The idea being to capture character from the power amp section of a tube head. If a Class D amp is designed for clean power amplification, then you get no tonal benefits from the power amp , and a preamp DI out would be all you need.

I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t completely agree with you in some minor respects. There are solid state amps that have strong “tube” type characteristics. I’m thinking the old warhorse A/B amps like Acoustic and Sunn. So tagging into the speaker out on those amps could also be beneficial.

But I see using a speaker out input into a DI as mostly a convenience for getting the sound of older solid-state and tube gear into a board without resorting to using a mic. And for live sound at stage volume I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference.

FWIW I’ve began exploring a more modular approach over the fast few years. So I have several different preamps with distinctive sonic characteristics that are separate from the power amp.

As far as power amp character goes there are also IR based amp/cab emulations that have gotten quite good recently. So it’s fairly easy to park an amp/cab emulator right before the DI and put both in the effects loop or between the preamp and power amp if you’re using separates.

There’s also a new breed of effects like Supro’s current series of pedals that include circuitry and a transformer to model the sound of their class-A tube amps that are beginning to appear. Add they nailed it to my ears. So a dedicated separate amp emulator isn’t always needed either. And let’s not forget those DIs that also incorporate a transformer to capture some of that tube vibe.

Lots of different ways to approach it. Life is good!

 

[NKBassman]

I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t completely agree with you in some minor respects. There are solid state amps that have strong “tube” type characteristics. I’m thinking the old warhorse A/B amps like Acoustic and Sunn. So tagging into the speaker out on those amps could also be beneficial.

But I see using a speaker out input into a DI as mostly a convenience for getting the sound of older solid-state and tube gear into a board without resorting to using a mic. And for live sound at stage volume I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference.

FWIW I’ve began exploring a more modular approach over the fast few years. So I have several different preamps with distinctive sonic characteristics that are separate from the power amp.

As far as power amp character goes there are also IR based amp/cab emulations that have gotten quite good recently. So it’s fairly easy to park an amp/cab emulator right before the DI and put both in the effects loop or between the preamp and power amp if you’re using separates.

There’s also a new breed of effects like Supro’s current series of pedals that include circuitry and a transformer to model the sound of their class-A tube amps that are beginning to appear. Add they nailed it to my ears. So a dedicated separate amp emulator isn’t always needed either. And let’s not forget those DIs that also incorporate a transformer to capture some of that tube vibe.

Lots of different ways to approach it. Life is good!

To the OP @rodv66 , we're getting pretty far afield here talking about hypotheticals. Bottom line is, using a speaker DI is perfectly fine with your Orange AD200, but might not be safe with more modern Class D heads (like Darkglass, etc). Just keep in mind that it's not universally a safe approach with all amp types, but tube amps are generally fine. If in doubt, use the Slave Out on your head instead.

 

[micguy]

I have a bunch of DI's - a JDI, a J 48, a Countryman type 85, a Radial Stage bug SB-1, and 2 Radial pro DI's. They are all good choices with slight advantages in some cases:

The Countryman has the highest input impedance - some guitars have piezos without a preamp onboard, and the Countryman is the one DI (that I know of) that works well with those. I tran into a band once that told me I had to mic their acoustic, because it didn't work with DI's. I asked them to humor me - it worked fine with the Countryman. The Radial Stage bug has an input impedance just a bit lower than what most bass amps do - it's good if you want all the articulation that your bass has to offer. The J48 has some features you probably won't use (like a high pass), but with guitars, that's a big help. All of the aforementioned DI's need phantom power (a 9 volt will power the Countryman if you don't have phantom).

The Radial JDI and Pro DI's are passive - they work fine without phantom power. Their input impedances are lower than most bass amps, so if you plug straignt in, you won't get all the bite your bass has to offer, but in a lot of cases, that's OK. I have the Pro DI's on my pedalboards - the lower impedance is NOT an issue at all if you're driving them with a pedal. The reason I prefer the PRO DI's in that situation is they're smaller and lighter than a JDI (they're still built like tanks) - the JDI is a bit more of a space hog if you're putting it on a pedalboard.

 

[agedhorse]

Fair enough.

I use my Countryman off tge speaker out with my small tube amps all the time. I’m not all that chuffed about chancing it with my class-D amps however, since I don’t know enough about their internals to know if I’m at risk or not.

My other feeling (possibly wrong) is that if the speaker outs on an amp are Speakon jacks, then it’s probably wisest to only plug them into a device that has Speakon inputs.

There are some class D amps that do use 1/4” outputs, unfortunately. My caution applies to these as well.

I understand what you’re saying. But I don’t completely agree with you in some minor respects. There are solid state amps that have strong “tube” type characteristics. I’m thinking the old warhorse A/B amps like Acoustic and Sunn. So tagging into the speaker out on those amps could also be beneficial.

But I see using a speaker out input into a DI as mostly a convenience for getting the sound of older solid-state and tube gear into a board without resorting to using a mic. And for live sound at stage volume I seriously doubt anyone could tell the difference.

FWIW I’ve began exploring a more modular approach over the fast few years. So I have several different preamps with distinctive sonic characteristics that are separate from the power amp.

As far as power amp character goes there are also IR based amp/cab emulations that have gotten quite good recently. So it’s fairly easy to park an amp/cab emulator right before the DI and put both in the effects loop or between the preamp and power amp if you’re using separates.

There’s also a new breed of effects like Supro’s current series of pedals that include circuitry and a transformer to model the sound of their class-A tube amps that are beginning to appear. Add they nailed it to my ears. So a dedicated separate amp emulator isn’t always needed either. And let’s not forget those DIs that also incorporate a transformer to capture some of that tube vibe.

Lots of different ways to approach it. Life is good!

The transformers used in most DIs do not contribute to “tube vibe”, they are unrelated to tubes and those characteristics commonly associated with “tube vibe” (which varies with whoever is describing it anyway).

 

[Kendescending]

This would make an interesting di box. Nuvistor vacuum tube inside. https://www.lightningboyaudio.com/division.html

 

[40Hz]

The transformers used in most DIs do not contribute to “tube vibe”, they are unrelated to tubes and those characteristics commonly associated with “tube vibe” (which varies with whoever is describing it anyway).

In this case it was Supro who said:

The Supro Tremolo features preamp and power amp sections, including an actual output transformer deployed to recreate the magnetic saturation characteristic of historic Supro amps

If I misinterpreted their words “magnetic saturation” to imply a “tubey vibe” (which was my choice of words - and to me means: a vintage type of warmth, breakup, and mild compression) then my bad.

However, that pedal (with the tremolo dialed completely out) does sound an awful lot like I’m going through an old Supro or one of their new Blues King tube amps. Or at least it does to my ears. Others may hear it differently.

 

[agedhorse]

In this case it was Supro who said:

​

If I misinterpreted their words “magnetic saturation” to imply a “tubey vibe” (which was my choice of words - and to me means: a vintage type of warmth, breakup, and mild compression) then my bad.

However, that pedal (with the tremolo dialed completely out) does sound an awful lot like I’m going through an old Supro or one of their new Blues King tube amps. Or at least it does to my ears. Others may hear it differently.

If the PEDAL is designed to create this tone, there are many ways to do this without a transformer. If they designed (or selected) a transformer for the characteristics that exploit such defects in linearity, that too is a possibility. The claims and explanations of the marketing (of any product) may not be technically accurate or even correct.

This is NOT a characteristic of transformers used in virtually every general use DI that I have examined, not a characteristic of any (commercial product) DI that I have ever designed either.

 

[40Hz]

If the PEDAL is designed to create this tone, there are many ways to do this without a transformer. If they designed (or selected) a transformer for the characteristics that exploit such defects in linearity, that too is a possibility. The claims and explanations of the marketing (of any product) may not be technically accurate or even correct.

This is NOT a characteristic of transformers used in virtually every general use DI that I have examined, not a characteristic of any (commercial product) DI that I have ever designed either.

Woah! Not arguing with you. No need to use CAPS. Just trying to have what I thought was a casual conversation.

I’ll show myself out now.

 

[agedhorse]

Woah! Not arguing with you. No need to use CAPS. Just trying to have what I thought was a casual conversation.

I’ll show myself out now.

I was trying to highlight the difference between a pedal that is designed to be used as an effect and a DI which is generally the polar opposite. I used CAPS to emphasize the DIFFERENCE between the two approaches, which had nothing to do with arguing.

 

[tech21nyc]

... I have a Sansamp as well, it's a good pedal but it definitely colors you sound and can add noise depending how you adjust it...

... You could XLR out of the sans amp. Sans amps actually work very well direct into the PA and doing that wouldn’t cost you a nickel. But it would pretty much mean leaving the sans amp on all the time. If you’re ok with the sans amp being on all the time I’d go that route. If not I would recommend getting a clean Di type pedal to use as an always on pre amp and using the sans amp more as an on and off overdrive. ...t.

Our SansAmp Bass Driver, Para Driver and VT Bass DI "are" DI's. If you don't want any tube emulation or tone shaping just leave the pedal in bypass and it will operate like any active DI. It converts the high impedance signal of your instrument to low impedance for direct to mixer applications. If you switch on the pedal and keep the Blend control off you have a DI with active tone control. Turn up the Blend and you can adjust the amount of your instrument with the SansAmp tube emulation.

 

[tshapiro]

Our SansAmp Bass Driver, Para Driver and VT Bass DI "are" DI's. If you don't want any tube emulation or tone shaping just leave the pedal in bypass and it will operate like any active DI. It converts the high impedance signal of your instrument to low impedance for direct to mixer applications. If you switch on the pedal and keep the Blend control off you have a DI with active tone control. Turn up the Blend and you can adjust the amount of your instrument with the SansAmp tube emulation.

Thanks for the additional info! I do love the 3 Sansamp pedals I own and will likely buy another. Really good quality, thoughtfully designed and great phone support