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difference between diminished fifth and augmented fourth
- Thread starter bassbrother666
- Start date
The answer is found in here:
The Overtone Series (through 12) - Based of the Reference: Pitch A = 440Hz.
1) A - 55Hz - The Fundamental
2) A - 110 Hz
3) E - 165Hz
4) A - 220Hz
5) C# - 275Hz
6) E - 330Hz
7) G - 385Hz
8) A - 440Hz - Reference
9) B - 495Hz
10) C# - 550Hz
11) D# - 605Hz
12) E - 660Hz
A) The FIRST Diminished Fifth occurs between 5) & 7) -- C# to G.
The Ratio is 5/7 (0.7143).
B) The FIRST Augmented Fourth Interval occurs between 7) & 10) -- G to C#.
The Ratio is 7/10 (0.7).
The Diminished Fifth is a slightly LARGER Interval.
It's all very simple math. This can be done with ANY Pitch Reference.
And, why are the Modes dragged into this? Leave the Modes alone!
You didn't, others did...
"so basically in a lydian mode of E..."
"in the Lydian mode there is only an Augmented 4th..."
"In the Locrian mode there is only a Perfect 4th and a diminished 5th..."
Groove Master
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One other way to explain the pitch difference beteeen a F# and a Gb is the division of a whole-tone into 9 comas. So as we can see to divide the distance between F and F# we will use 5 comas between F and F# making the F# sharper then the Gb. Orchestra players are aware of that difference but for a fretted instrument like ours it does not make a difference.
Obviously, the second fret of our E string does not change pitch depending on whether we call it F# or Gb, so on which instruments does it make a difference?
Groove Master
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Fretless bass, all orchestra strings,brass, woodwinds etc...
I'm trying to understand this. Wouldn't string players finger the same spot on the fingerboard whether they were playing F# or Gb? Or would they finger the Gb slightly lower than an F# because it sounds more correct in the context of the other notes being played? And wouldn't the brass players be pressing the same valve key for both F# and Gb? (I am ignorant about horns, so I really don't know)
List of intervals
List of English interval names.
Invalid Link Removed
A note on the naming of musical intervals
A note on the naming of musical intervals
List of English interval names.
Invalid Link Removed
A note on the naming of musical intervals
A note on the naming of musical intervals
Groove Master
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It is not a fingering issue. More of a hearing issue. If the F# is going to G for example, you want to hear that resolution or attraction to the G same goes with the Gb going to F.
A violin player can play abit sharper or flatter just like a brass will use his mouthpiece to adjust the pitch of any fingerings
Groove Master
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"An interesting problem has faced musical instrument makers for hundreds of years. To get a "perfect 5th" (the interval between A and the E above, say), we need to play a note which has 1.5 times the frequency of A.
On a violin (or viola or any fretless stringed instrument) this is possible, and we can play a beautiful, perfect E at 440×1.5=660 Hz.
But notice (from the frequency table) that a piano playing the same note will play E =659.26 Hz [just a little flat!].
In the early 20th century, it was decided to tune keyboards so that the notes were evenly spaced (like the frequencies given in the table presented above). This is called equal tempered tuning. Such tuning was known in the time of Bach, but rejected because it was regarded as too "bland" (all keys have the same tone quality) and there were no frequency measuring tools that would have allowed exact tunings.
Unfortunately, equal tempered tuning means all stringed instruments have to allow for the slight differences in tunings between instruments when keyboards are also involved. Strings are usually happiest when playing with other strings only, for this reason."
What are the frequencies of music notes?
... singers singing a capella (solo, or ensemble). Want to hear what a REAL Dominant Seventh Chord sounds like? Barbershop Quartet (good ones).
MOST instruments ('cept fretted ones, pianos, other keyboards, I'm sure there are more...) can make instant small adjustments. Wind players can slightly alter pitch with their embouchure (lips, muscles around the mouth). Watch a concert Trumpet player. He'll even slightly push/pull out/in the slides (a la Trombone). Generally, the same fingering is used for, say F# or Gb, but small adjustments can be made, and there are even alternate fingerings that can be utilized.
To complicate this...
F# in the key of G Major is NOT the same as F# in the key of B Major, is not the same as Gb in the key of Db Major -- in Just Intonation -- you get the idea. This is what string (fretless) players can do by simply tuning to (usually) the bass.
Orchestra tuning is HEAVILY reliant on the Double Bass section for tuning. Any singer that has any skill will know that they sing off the bass player.
The bassist dictates the tuning. Everyone is out of tune if the bassist is out of tune.
Most synths come with many alternate tuning systems. If you have access to one... experiment.
High-level soloists (strings or others) learn to play with Orchestra (just intonation), and piano (equal temperament). They are indeed happier to NOT to play with piano.
This goes in reverse when an orchestra plays with solo piano. The orchestra has to tune to the piano.
You fretted slab players have so much less to think about. Assuming that you even know how to tune yer base-geetar (i.e., plug it into a tuner that tells you what to do - yer flat, yer sharp). You don't even need to pay attention to tuning anymore!
Groove Master
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^^^^^
Great points
This reminds me to always tell bassists students to make sure they are always in tune. I tune myself after every tune I play with the best tuners I can find. The bass has to be perfectly in-tune all the time !!
In the wake of all those "tuning" issues, could you tell me how you tune your bass? Open strings, octaves, what frets, etc...
For some strange reason, I barely use a tuner.
For me it's all about the vibrations.
The same question.
How do you tune your bass - fretted and fretless?
Fretted and fretless, I take an A from the keyboard (or tuning fork - A440) for the open A, then use harmonics from there - always have, always will.
For the Stick (mine has no intonation adjustment) I start with D at the 7th fret on the 7th string (G) string then tune the rest of the bass strings using tapped harmonics. For the melody strings I start with A at the 15th fret on the 5th string and tune the remaining strings using fingered notes - a 5-fret stretch is easy between the right hand index (i) and pinky (d). As no open strings are involved in playing, I set my references somewhere close to the most-used playing areas (4-10 in the bass and 10-20 in the melody).
Thank you for your answer.
You use harmonics. Yes, indeed, it's the best sound for my ears to hear those interval vibrations, but...
Have you read the following thread? What are your thoughts about that issue?
Stop Tuning Your Bass With Harmonics - Thought This Might Be Interesting | TalkBass.com
