Double Bass Differences between 5ths and 4ths Tunings for Jazz Players

[Huy Nguyen]

Interesting discussion. I’m studying cello now. 1. I love that so many open ringing melodies can be made in 5ths. 2. Haven’t had really to many problems keeping them straight. I use German bow on the bass and French on the cello, making it simpler to keep them separate in my mind. Because I have smaller hands, the cello is better for making melodies but I still am working out walking bass lines on it. One thing I’m not doing is trying establish patterns on the cello but to actually think of the actual notes making up the changes in a tune as well as setting up in my mind the keys and modes. This helps with the 5ths problem after 45 years of 4ths on the bass. Also the cello really is designed to play melodies that help to outline the piece of music as well as solo cello pieces that really ring in certain octaves. Not sure if this really is because of the 5ths thing or just the way it’s been written for over the centuries. Just my take as I progress so far.

Yeah, in essence keeping the instruments separate in your mental models. When I go back to 4ths tuning I'm sorta able to slide back into old fingers. 5ths does not transfer to 4ths for me. Only certain 4ths things transfers to 5ths. The boxed positions in 4ths shows up as a diagonal on 5ths for example. You could do the same in 5ths but i never made that mental switch. I've seen links to what people are calling a BACE (Bass Cello) ... aside from some greats making records that I've seen I think they're losing out on all the potential of what cello tuning has to offer and you def know what i'm talking about.

For melody capability, 5ths inherits a lot of music from violins, violas, cellos, mandolin, mandola, and a myriad of other instruments that draw all or part of their tunings from the violin.

4ths inherits a lot of backup/harmony capability from guitars ("the last 4") and other similarly tuned instruments.

What double bass does not inherit from any of those instruments is handy size, which is probably why the 4ths tuning solution has evolved through the centuries as prominent for the double bass. But that doesn't mean 5ths cannot be done on double bass, just that it has to be approached differently, as most of our 5ths practitioners have so well described here in this thread.

On these smaller normally 5ths tuned instruments, there are a few among us who do use non-standard tunings. Violin in particular frequently can be found tuned for drones or drop-tunings in certain genre. While it's rare, a few of us also use non-standard tunings for mandolins.

As someone who frequently uses non-standard tunings for instruments other than double bass, I'd opine that at least in my case it's mostly for convenience. But where that convenience disappears is if / when a person needs training or learning materials, as there is not much of a likelihood of finding a teacher or a reference document for non-standard tunings. A person who wonders into that rabbit hole needs to be extremely autodidactic.

From what I read on Joel Quarrington's website that basses originally started with tuning in 5ths and the tuning in 4ths came much later mainly due to the role of the bass as a support instrument and learning all the shifting was hard. Lets face it, even double bassists as soloist artist is a relatively new thing - at least not a norm until pretty much now.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Ok I feel a little sheepish but here's a little bit of an epiphany. You know that symmetrical major or minor chord? It didn't dawn on me (or anybody else it seems) .... they're just hexatonic scales but they're just as symmetrical in 5ths as in 4ths.

What that in mind, I tried playing my 4ths tuned fretless and mostly all my facility in 5ths is available.

So what's the material difference? Not much. It all really boils down to play 6ths instead of 3rds if you find value in that. That and the improved resonance of 5ths tuning but that is largely subjective.

I think for me what made it difficult isn't the tuning itself, but the decades of visualizing everything in positions and boxes - mainly out of fear or avoidance of shifting. That the pedagogy has become ossification and rigidity. I think the masters learn to transcend it and really the big crux of it all is having good intonation.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Ok I feel a little sheepish but here's a little bit of an epiphany. You know that symmetrical major or minor chord? It didn't dawn on me (or anybody else it seems) .... they're just hexatonic scales but they're just as symmetrical in 5ths as in 4ths.

What that in mind, I tried playing my 4ths tuned fretless and mostly all my facility in 5ths is available.

So what's the material difference? Not much. It all really boils down to play 6ths instead of 3rds if you find value in that. That and the improved resonance of 5ths tuning but that is largely subjective.

I think for me what made it difficult isn't the tuning itself, but the decades of visualizing everything in positions and boxes - mainly out of fear or avoidance of shifting. That the pedagogy has become ossification and rigidity. I think the masters learn to transcend it and really the big crux of it all is having good intonation.

I just listened to a fascinating explanation of intervals by Stanley Jordan that reflects some of the points you're making, but from a different perspective.

 

[JamesGrant]

True of so much - once you have a level of comfort, spending effort undoing that comfort to (hopefully) advance is often not appealing - you know you’ll get ‘worse’ in the short term but you don’t KNOW if or when you’ll get to the other side nor how long or how hard the journey will be.

 

[porkynuggets]

An interesting side note: I studied with a student of Joel Quartington, who tunes in fifths. She says emphatically that 5ths tuning makes the instrument more resonant. Something else to calculate in the trade-offs I suppose.

My hands know 4ths, I'm not about to switch

 

[Huy Nguyen]

OK here's another cheat sheet. This isn't new and easily what everybody in 4ths does but mirrored. For me it's helpful to visually see the layout of the most compact way to play with minimal shifting. It just sounds better in 4ths bc it's not inverted going low to high in some form. Just trying to keep it within 4 semitones to maintain an easy hand frame.

What's interesting here is the mental shift to the "left" side of the Root when I'm in maj chords and right side for minor chords (or go vertical). This will certainly affect the language of what gets created and I think tacitly what influences a lot of what happens in 4ths language (but mirrored).

If I were to go back to 4ths I would redraw these diagrams just to help with my visual learning. What's interesting for me is the 3 string pattern is something I didn't pay attention to much when I was playing in 4ths.

 

[JBarz]

What's interesting for me is the 3 string pattern is something I didn't pay attention to much when I was playing in 4ths.

Just curious - why not put the 4th string in these diagrams, too?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Just that it’s a relative positioning and that it can be moved around. The idea isn’t to spell out every chord at every location. Much of my playing revolves around the D string as the center of things. I don’t use the C string equally either.

You’re the only 5 in 5ths player probably ever or very few. You’ll have to work things out across 4 strings but I suspect skipping strings to play chords isn’t something you do often.

My guitar is strung in 5ths and I haven’t figured it out there yet either.

Edited to fix some inline keyboard typos

 

[JBarz]

Interesting. Never considered tuning a guitar in fifths - I think I’d lose my mind. Carry on.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Just that it’s a relative positioning and that it can be moved around. The idea isn’t to spell out every chord at every location.

yeah but, the people want to see it it would be alot more useful to me personally as far as imagining the possibilities of 5ths tuning to see chord tones mapped over all 4 strings since i actively try to avoid playing up and down a single string where possible.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

yeah but, the people want to see it it would be alot more useful to me personally as far as imagining the possibilities of 5ths tuning to see chord tones mapped over all 4 strings since i actively try to avoid playing up and down a single string where possible.

You are welcome to figure it out yourself lol. It’s been great learning for me to visualize it to the extent that I need it. I’m on my 4th or 5th Red Mitchell transcription and there’s no indication yet he ever needed to play all 4 strings at the same time or both the C and the A string at the same time. He shifts like a mofo. He plays 5ths like a piano in a way and 10ths are common.

If you’re so hung up on not shifting I wouldn’t bother. I even tried skipping a string so I used 4 strings like you typically do on guitar and even on 5th-tuned guitar it doesn’t quite make sense. The problem is that double stops with the C string require a ton of hand strength, more than I’ve ever experienced in 4ths. Even if I could I don’t have the stamina yet. It took me a while to build muscle to even play lots of double stops on the lighter strings.

Mad props to @JBarz for playing a fiver. Not sure I can hang.

 

[JBarz]

There are plenty of examples of Red briefly grabbing all four strings (I think?), but the argument is more about knowing the options available. Like, if you’re grabbing an F-7 chord rooted on the C string, it’s nice to know the b7 (or 6 if you’re about to change to Bb7) is right below the b3 (for example). It also conceptually particularly comes in handy when thinking about grabbing a quick melody note. But you’re also right in that it doesn’t take much to extrapolate one’s options on their own without a cheat sheet.

Huy, I’m going to get you playing 5 string fifths before it’s all said and done.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Yeah I spoke too soon, I just found a spot where he plays a minor 7th with the root on the bottom just as you're describing. Just C and A strings. Gimme some time and I'll diagram that out.

I've tried 5'ers in 4ths.... i don't like 'em. Too heavy. I'll do a 5er electric tho. I already have a fretless 5 that i'm thinking of converting.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Ok here's the diagram with my favored way to play - double stops across 2 and 3 strings. But also while I was at it I added one for all 4 strings.
Note that I also included here the b3, b6, and b7 (in green) as a way to show notes borrowed from the Aeolian scale as described with modal interchange. Why these? Bc I found that you can create this really great smooth lines and that adding the two notes can add some sophistication to the voicings that should be resolved relatively immediately to the nearest chord tone.

By incorporating the b3, b6 and b7 I can now have a really nice way to either comp chords, play chord melody, or just do long soloing runs using just double stops.

As a tidbit, here's how I typically find Red Mitchell doing a iiVI

Enjoy!

PS Remember that blue backgrounds are the 2 chords, yellow is tonic chord. Dashed boxes are the V chord.

 

[JBarz]

For some reason my brain is having a difficult time processing this particular map and colors. Thinking of a ii-7 as ‘2 4 6 R’ seems super counter intuitive to me, personally, but I that’s mayhaps just a pedogological rut I’ve dug for myself by always conceptually tonisizing the root of whatever chord I’m playing, regardless of quality.

I can see advantages to your way of thinking, though! Keep it coming, loving the thread.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

For some reason my brain is having a difficult time processing this particular map and colors. Thinking of a ii-7 as ‘2 4 6 R’ seems super counter intuitive to me, personally, but I that’s mayhaps just a pedogological rut I’ve dug for myself by always conceptually tonisizing the root of whatever chord I’m playing, regardless of quality.

I can see advantages to your way of thinking, though! Keep it coming, loving the thread.

Yeah it’s weird ain’t it but you can clearly see voice leading. Seeing dominant chords as 5724 is odd for me too but that’s what’s going on with absolute relationships to the tonic. We’re so used to seeing each chord related to itself as single notes in the arpeggio.

But really all we’re doing is looking at the notes as if we were looking at a piano with a bass layout.

 

[savid]

Yeah I spoke too soon, I just found a spot where he plays a minor 7th with the root on the bottom just as you're describing. Just C and A strings. Gimme some time and I'll diagram that out.

I've tried 5'ers in 4ths.... i don't like 'em. Too heavy. I'll do a 5er electric tho. I already have a fretless 5 that i'm thinking of converting.

I have a fretless 5 tuned CGDAE; would highly recommend it if you’re this invested in 5ths tuning, I really enjoy playing mine. appreciate you sharing your diagrams btw, I haven’t taken to time to put together anything nice visually like this.
side note for me, it’s a bonus for my personal taste to get better and more even tension on the 34” low string by tuning up a “B” string to C