• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Differences Between German, Italian, etc...

I was wondering if it would be worth making a new sticky or adding to the newbie sticky a section on the general differences and comparisons between German, Italian, Czech, etc basses. Was just thinking about that in light of all the ID threads that pop up, and I'd personally like to read more about those differences myself. Hope this isn't too redundant a topic.
 
Well ok. Then the ID threads would continue, no? Maybe I'm wording it wrong in the previous post by using the phrase "schools of building". I don't really care, I'm new to DB and trying to learn and I'm making a simple suggestion is all.
 
OK well here's what *I* think.

We could write up a bunch of generalisations, but then for every generalisation there are a bunch of exceptions. It depends what actually you mean by "ID"

If you are trying to classify a bass in a "school" you look at outline shapes, scroll shapes, construction methods inside and out, hardware, varnish, perceived age, labels, marks etc. So its a kind of "looks like ..." classification. But anyone can build "In the style of" someone else so it doesn't really give any clues to origin, in my view.

If you are trying to find out WHERE the bass was made you could look at the "Looks like ..." then maybe add the materials used, do a bit more detective work on the label, if you think it is the original label (not always the case!) but more often, find a similar looking bass with similar materials and with a "known" pedigree etc. You might or might not be able to narrow things down to a country. But a bass made from Italian maple is not necessarily made in italy. And a bass actually made in italy could be made by an established german maker in a french style. Is it italian or german or french? And a bass with a german-or italian-looking label is more likely than not to be made in China or Korea these days. And basses made in Europe or USA can easily be made of wood imported from Asia, and in any number of styles.

If you are trying to work out precisely WHO made the bass, and the bass doesn't have any genuine makers' marks or authentic labels, you have to go by things that indicate "the hand of the maker" such as carving techniques, f-hole shapes, arching, the age of the wood, varnish and so on. And these are nowhere near 100% sure either. And in an older bass, it has passed through many luthiers hands, so can be a misleading combination of work from different people at different periods.

Say you have a bass originally made in italy which has had its neck and scroll replaced in germany in a german style 100 years ago and subsequently the ribs and internal bracing were replaced in England from french material and then the tuners were replaced in an "italian" style by an american luthier. What IS that bass?

A lot of the above parameters are impossible to judge on photos alone. And don't even start to talk about fakes and copies being passed off as something else ...

I DO think the pedigree, the history, of a bass is more interesting than just the ID, even just to who owned it beforehand. I often think it is a pity that basses don't have a built-in service and owner log book like a car does. Even "lesser" basses that have passed through interesting hands would be more interesting! All basses have a character that builds with age. Some of that history, an experienced luthier can make a stab at guessing.

Think about this: in the end, what difference does it make where I was born? I am who I am, I am the product of my makers, my parents, but also influenced by everyone with whom I have had contact in the past 50 years. And by what I have learnt, listened to, eaten, and eat now, and what languages i speak. Can you ID me just by looking at me? hardly. You get a better idea (for better or for worse) by listening to me and interacting with me. Perhaps at the end, you will say, "ah yes, Made in England" but beh, what does that really mean?

Same goes for basses.

But if someone wants to try to compile a cool sticky, I won't object :-)
 
Well a list of general things to look for would be useful. Such as lining on the outside = possibility of being German or eastern European. Or 17 pics of late 1800s tyrolean basses. Once you see a bunch of tyrolean basses, you know for sure that future tyroleans you see are not confused with traditionally made fine Italian basses. Also an Internet site with scroll, f hole etc pics would be very useful! Bow pics are also very useful

To be precise is impossible when it comes to basses in general.
 
There are very distinct differences. Each school, not just German, French and Italian, but American, Dutch, Hungarian etc etc, is different. That said, the best way to be able to collate all the information needed to ID something can only come from years of study and experience. This is an internet age problem. We all, me included, have so much information at our fingertips and we can ask any question under the sun and get hundreds of responses on any subject we can think of. However, it is very difficult to actually learn this way. At first it seems like a great idea to create a sticky about the different schools but then when you actually think of doing it it becomes so convoluted with exceptions and inconsistencies that it begins to look futile. If you look at a lot of basses over time and play a lot of basses over time you begin to be able to tell where a bass is likely from. It's really the only way to learn. Some of that can be done over the web, studying photographs and reading about different makers and such, but much of it has to be from looking at basses.
 
All sensible responses. Matthew and Jason's sentiments could be included as a preamble to such a thread (even if it's not a sticky). Just because it can get complicated is no reason not to have a thread that speaks to generalizations with caveats included. The truth is that there are prototypical examples of what is a German or Italian bass. As Matthew said:

We could write up a bunch of generalisations, but then for every generalisation there are a bunch of exceptions.

That's true for so many things but getting folks in the ballpark would, IMO, be a worthy endeavor.
 
Cool. I'm glad there's a little interest in this idea. I figured there would be a lot of overlapping/inconsistencies in styles, but wasn't sure exactly how complicated it is.
I'm trying to research as much as possible while I wait for my humble little Shen to arrive.
 
The thing that I have never really gotten a satisfactory answer for is - are Vincenzo Panormo basses Italian basses, French basses or English basses? Ken's answer was if it was made in Italy it's an Italian bass, in France, French and in England, English.

But if the same Italian maker is making all of these basses, along design concepts he has always worked with and in many cases using the same wood, why aren't they ALL Italian basses?
 
The thing that I have never really gotten a satisfactory answer for is - are Vincenzo Panormo basses Italian basses, French basses or English basses? Ken's answer was if it was made in Italy it's an Italian bass, in France, French and in England, English.

But if the same Italian maker is making all of these basses, along design concepts he has always worked with and in many cases using the same wood, why aren't they ALL Italian basses?

...because an Italian anything is usually something made in Italy. Then again, is Subaru a Japanese car? Hmm... made in [DEL]Tennessee[/DEL] Indiana. It's a car made by a Japanese company. If the Italian maker's son takes over the business but was born in the USA, then are the basses he makes Italian?

I think many of these (non)issues can be solved by being explicit. One can point out that this or that bass is made in the "Italian style" by this or that maker. By providing a bit of information, one need not get hung up on the definition of a label.

When Gennaro DeLucia carved a bridge for me, I didn't figure I had an Italian bridge. I did figure that I was fortunate to have a bridge carved by an Italian master. I wasn't conflicted. :)