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Different tone from different wood, really?

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It's not an appeal to authority - it's relying on the experience of very respected builders who have spent their lives creating instruments that are seen as some of the best in the industry. People purchase their instruments precisely because of their knowledge; knowledge and experience that is criticized as witchcraft by people who don't believe in the existence of tonewoods.

To my mind if it's not based on objective scientific evidence then it's an appeal to authority. We are often wrong about things as we tend to act subjectively on incomplete information which is very sensible in evolutionary terms (doing a peer reviewed study on whether it really is a hungry bear behind that tree is likely to result in that group of neolithic nerds not reproducing), so hard facts are, to me, the arbiter. My Strat copy sounded fine, but even that's just an anecdote, not data. I didn't record it before trying to refinish it, so it would be hard to demonstrate any changes before the pickup and body modifications to present here, though, as some minimal level of data.

In terms of my views on tonewood, I can't see that given the relatively minimal amount of energy that is going to be entering the body and the relatively similar properties of the commonly used woods in manufacturing that there could be much effect, at least to the degree we can distinguish it. But if someone does the tests and shows me there is a difference I will change my opinion. I used to think that tone wood did make a difference until I thought about it and also looked at the tests some others had done, although those are not statistically significant, hence I have to remain somewhat sceptical of all elements of the argument.
 
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I had a plywood Strat copy. I modified the pickups and it sounded really great. I didn't realise it was plywood so when I tried to refinish it then it went badly. So I have a solid wood replacement which hasn't quite got enough layers of tung oil yet. It was cheap and is 'maple' but of the little known basswood maple family. It looks fine with the 'blackburst' that with the yellowing effect of the tung oil is more a black/teak burst.
OT, but I'd love that color combo!

Serious question on topic: Played acoustically, no amp in the room, can you hear a difference between a Precision, Jazz, Ibanez SR, Stingray, etc?

I can, and I'd bet that you can too. Why is that? Amplification has been taken out of the equation. People LOVE the P sound (well, I don't - but you know what I mean...).

The only thing that changes is the materials and the shape of the instrument. I'd even be willing to believe that the shape affects the sound in some way.
 
OT, but I'd love that color combo!

I will post some photos when it's done. It's absorbing much more of the tung oil than I expected so it's taking a while! The stain was water based (I have forgotten the brand, but it's pretty easy to work with) and I am thinning the tung oil with a citrus/aliphatic thinner as I didn't want to use mineral thinners. I'm aiming for a satin finish if I can manage it, but this is my first time using tung oil on a body as opposed to on a fingerboard.
 
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OT, but I'd love that color combo!

Serious question on topic: Played acoustically, no amp in the room, can you hear a difference between a Precision, Jazz, Ibanez SR, Stingray, etc?

I can, and I'd bet that you can too. Why is that? Amplification has been taken out of the equation. People LOVE the P sound (well, I don't - but you know what I mean...).

The only thing that changes is the materials and the shape of the instrument. I'd even be willing to believe that the shape affects the sound in some way.

Actually, I think few people dispute that acoustically, people would hear a difference. The whole crux of the debate is whether or not various species of wood have a audibly discernable effect on the electromagnetic sound.
 
I don't see how the type of pickup on a bass could affect the sound acoustically.
It wouldn't, but most anti-tonewood people (ATWs from here on out!) say that the sound of the bass is determined by pup style and location. I'm saying that the bigger differentiator is the materials it's made from.

A P-bass sounds like a P-bass whether or not it's plugged in. A good amp lets that sound shine through, without significantly altering it. So, why does it sound like a P-bass even acoustically...?
 
Actually, I think few people dispute that acoustically, they would hear a difference. The whole crux of the debate is whether or not various species of wood has a audibly discernable effect on the electromagnetic sound.
But that P-bass, or Jazz bass sound is always there, plugged in or not. The string vibrations that you hear acoustically are being filtered by the materials the bass is made from. I believe that's why they sound the way they do. The magnetic field supplied by the pickups simply allow you to make it louder.
 
The only thing that changes is the materials and the shape of the instrument. I'd even be willing to believe that the shape affects the sound in some way.

I'm not convinced the difference in shape is that significant, other than the routing, and two Jazz basses can have very different routing. If we were talking about acoustic instruments with essentially flat plate resonators responsible for projecting the sound I'd have a very different view of what the likely effect of the physics would be, but not for solid body. The acoustic sound is coming almost entirely from the strings, and the absorption of energy from the strings is very unlikely to be particularly affected by the relatively small differences in body shape. Have a look at the Darrell Braun video during which he saws chunks off a Strat copy, ending with having cut something like 70% of it away. There's no particular change in sound plugged in at least (I can't remember whether there was anything done with the acoustic sound) and it's much more radical than the bass differences. In any case I plug my electric instruments in, so acoustic sound isn't very important for a solid body.
 
It wouldn't, but most anti-tonewood people (ATWs from here on out!) say that the sound of the bass is determined by pup style and location. I'm saying that the bigger differentiator is the materials it's made from.

A P-bass sounds like a P-bass whether or not it's plugged in. A good amp lets that sound shine through, without significantly altering it. So, why does it sound like a P-bass even acoustically...?

I am thinking of putting a P pickup in one of my Jazz basses. Will it sound different unplugged?
 
It wouldn't, but most anti-tonewood people (ATWs from here on out!) say that the sound of the bass is determined by pup style and location. I'm saying that the bigger differentiator is the materials it's made from.

I replaced the overwound Kent Armstrongs in a Jazz bass that made it sound dark and put Wizard 64s in, and it got a lot brighter. The wood didn't change, nor the position, just the number of windings, really.
 
I'm not convinced the difference in shape is that significant, other than the routing, and two Jazz basses can have very different routing. If we were talking about acoustic instruments with essentially flat plate resonators responsible for projecting the sound I'd have a very different view of what the likely effect of the physics would be, but not for solid body. The acoustic sound is coming almost entirely from the strings, and the absorption of energy from the strings is very unlikely to be particularly affected by the relatively small differences in body shape. Have a look at the Darrell Braun video during which he saws chunks off a Strat copy, ending with having cut something like 70% of it away. There's no particular change in sound plugged in at least (I can't remember whether there was anything done with the acoustic sound) and it's much more radical than the bass differences. In any case I plug my electric instruments in, so acoustic sound isn't very important for a solid body.
The DBG video you reference is a fun one. I personally thought it sounded different as he hacked the guitar apart. It sounded fine no matter what, but it didn't make no difference.

Also, that video is just an appeal to authority

Seriously though it is anecdoctal evidence. And anecdotes and empyric evidence is still evidence. One thing you have to give builders credit for is getting to handle a lot more instruments than I ever will. How many guitars do you think someone like Paul Reed Smith has been able to handle in his lifetime? It is not a randomized controlled trial, but neither are the white board high school physics lessons.
 
The DBG video you reference is a fun one. I personally thought it sounded different as he hacked the guitar apart. It sounded fine no matter what, but it didn't make no difference.

Very little difference I thought.

Also, that video is just an appeal to authority

It's the video not the opinions of the man that matter to me. It's a small sample, though, and to settle it needs more evidence.
 
It wouldn't, but most anti-tonewood people (ATWs from here on out!) say that the sound of the bass is determined by pup style and location. I'm saying that the bigger differentiator is the materials it's made from.

A P-bass sounds like a P-bass whether or not it's plugged in. A good amp lets that sound shine through, without significantly altering it. So, why does it sound like a P-bass even acoustically...?

The dispute is not located in why a P-bass sounds like a P-bass. Rather, the fight is over whether there is an audibly discernable difference between say, a P-bass made from one species of wood and another P-bass made in exactly the same way where only the wood is different.
 
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I have a P pickup and at least one J pickup in the parts box so I could calculate the difference. I can't see it being anything more than a very small fraction of the overall instrument mass.
Me either. I'm of the opinion that technique, strings, and pickup make up 90 - 95% of the sound. Everything else is in that remaining 5 - 10% percent, but I don't care enough to get wound up about it.
 
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Very little difference I thought.



It's the video not the opinions of the man that matter to me. It's a small sample, though, and to settle it needs more evidence.
The video is the authority in your case. Also, Mr Braun said there was no difference, but without controls, multiple tests, blinding, analytic study how can you tell? I could hear a difference as he hacked it apart.
 
The video is the authority in your case. Also, Mr Braun said there was no difference, but without controls, multiple tests, blinding, analytic study how can you tell? I could hear a difference as he hacked it apart.

Appeal to authority is about appealing to a person, not the evidence itself. I'd agree with you on multiple tests, which I keep mentioning.
 
Actually, I think few people dispute that acoustically, people would hear a difference. The whole crux of the debate is whether or not various species of wood have a audibly discernable effect on the electromagnetic sound.
I think you missed the point. It's not that the wood has an effect on the electromagnetic sound - it has an effect on how the string vibrates. It's outside of the realm of the electromagnetic system which can only supply an electronic signal based on how the string is vibrating.
 
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