Different tone from different wood, really?

[James Collins]

I have a P pickup and at least one J pickup in the parts box so I could calculate the difference. I can't see it being anything more than a very small fraction of the overall instrument mass.

I think the person you were originally asking was saying that the woods on a p bass and a j bass may be the same, but the change in tone comes at first from the different neck dimensions and body shapes. Like if you took a p bass and put a single coil pickup in it it would sound like a p bass acoustically and amplified. I don't have enough experience to tell that.

But I did just practice briefly with a Rickenbacker 4003sw (walnut body/maple neck/maple fb), Warwick SS1 (French Cherry body/wenge neck/wenge fb), and Warwick SS1 (American cherry body/maple neck/wenge fb). The Warwicks have the same strings and different fret/nut materials. The all wenge is the most growly with less brittle highs and more defined mids. The Rickenbacker and Maple SS1 are brighter but both sound different. Amplified, I went through a bunch of settings. They sound like themselves just colored a little different.

 

[James Collins]

Appeal to authority is about appealing to a person, not the evidence itself. I'd agree with you on multiple tests, which I keep mentioning.

An appeal to authority does not have to be a person. People appeal to the authority of the Bible all the time.

 

[James Collins]

I think you missed the point. It's not that the wood has an effect on the electromagnetic sound - it has an effect on how the string vibrates. It's outside of the realm of the electromagnetic system which can only supply an electronic signal based on how the string is vibrating.

People also miss the point that a semi-hollow body electric instrument sounds different than a solid body instrument. If it is just vibrating strings, plucking technique, and pickups...why?

 

[-Asdfgh-]

An appeal to authority does not have to be a person. People appeal to the authority of the Bible all the time.

It's an instance of a trial, an experiment. The Bible isn't an experiment.

 

[James Collins]

It's an instance of a trial, an experiment. The Bible isn't an experiment.

Not all authorities are created equally.

 

[MtManiac]

In order, the factors that affect the tone of the bass (excluding amp and mixing):
1) player technique and ability
2) pickups
3) playing environment
4) quality of construction the bass, e.g. bolt on vs neck through vs hollow vs semi hollow
5) neck wood and fretboard
6) body wood
7) connections to amp/sound board
8) audience

And venue needs to be there too, since we only hear sound when it travels through air. A room with a low ceiling and lots of wood panels and moving humans will sound much different than a large room with a cement floor, concrete walls, 50’ ceiling, and no humans.

 

[MtManiac]

To my mind if it's not based on objective scientific evidence then it's an appeal to authority. We are often wrong about things as we tend to act subjectively on incomplete information which is very sensible in evolutionary terms (doing a peer reviewed study on whether it really is a hungry bear behind that tree is likely to result in that group of neolithic nerds not reproducing), so hard facts are, to me, the arbiter. My Strat copy sounded fine, but even that's just an anecdote, not data. I didn't record it before trying to refinish it, so it would be hard to demonstrate any changes before the pickup and body modifications to present here, though, as some minimal level of data.

In terms of my views on tonewood, I can't see that given the relatively minimal amount of energy that is going to be entering the body and the relatively similar properties of the commonly used woods in manufacturing that there could be much effect, at least to the degree we can distinguish it. But if someone does the tests and shows me there is a difference I will change my opinion. I used to think that tone wood did make a difference until I thought about it and also looked at the tests some others had done, although those are not statistically significant, hence I have to remain somewhat sceptical of all elements of the argument.

This is all I’ve ever ask for too - show me actual consistent data that demonstrates scientifically that maple fretboards are “brighter” than rosewood, or that alder is “warmer” than ash.

Until then, it’s just some other human’s opinion versus my equally invalid one.

 

[MtManiac]

It wouldn't, but most anti-tonewood people (ATWs from here on out!) say that the sound of the bass is determined by pup style and location. I'm saying that the bigger differentiator is the materials it's made from.

A P-bass sounds like a P-bass whether or not it's plugged in. A good amp lets that sound shine through, without significantly altering it. So, why does it sound like a P-bass even acoustically...?

Dude, if you can hear the difference between a P bass and a Jazz unplugged, all other things being equal, then you seriously have some superhuman ears. Like, that’s Kryptonian. You should go on tour with that. I’d pay money to watch.

 

[Scottgun]

Dude, if you can hear the difference between a P bass and a Jazz unplugged, all other things being equal, then you seriously have some superhuman ears. Like, that’s Kryptonian. You should go on tour with that. I’d pay money to watch.

I'd be willing to grant that he can tell difference. It's easy to grant because nobody cares or should care about how a solid-body electric bass sounds unplugged because nobody buys such basses based on that. The fight is over whether solid-body electric basses have audibly discernable differences between the various woods (everything else the same) when listened to normally.

 

[eqvolvorama]

Double Blind Tests.

With multiple (5+) basses.

Each with the same identical shape, hardware, etc., then wood being randomized. You can even have 2 or more of the same wood.

Then blind test. Have people identify which wood is which.

If the answers are consistent among a large pool of participants, we’re onto something. Then it’s a matter of analyzing whether they were consistently CORRECT or INCORRECT. This will address common beliefs around characteristic wood effects on sound. Is Mahogany dark? Is Ash bright? That sort of thing.

If the answers are consistent with random distribution, then we’re onto something else. This would suggest that either wood doesn’t matter, or that variations in wood among the same species are large enough that wood CHOICE effectively doesn’t matter.

This is the only way. Everything else is a pointless argument. Play what you want. Cocobolo? Awesome. Plywood? Great.

 

[MtManiac]

Double Blind Tests.

With multiple (5+) basses.

Each with the same identical shape, hardware, etc., then wood being randomized. You can even have 2 or more of the same wood.

Then blind test. Have people identify which wood is which.

If the answers are consistent among a large pool of participants, we’re onto something. Then it’s a matter of analyzing whether they were consistently CORRECT or INCORRECT. This will address common beliefs around characteristic wood effects on sound. Is Mahogany dark? Is Ash bright? That sort of thing.

If the answers are consistent with random distribution, then we’re onto something else. This would suggest that either wood doesn’t matter, or that variations in wood among the same species are large enough that wood CHOICE effectively doesn’t matter.

This is the only way. Everything else is a pointless argument. Play what you want. Cocobolo? Awesome. Plywood? Great.

Truly, it’s a pointless argument anyway. I’ve played some $4-5000 basses that left me thinking “ain’t no way I’m spending that on this” and $350 ones I couldn’t whip my card out fast enough to get.

 

[AboutSweetSue]

Maybe next time don’t be condescending to perfect strangers. It’s such a simple concept, I didn’t think it needed to be spelled out, but anecdotes do not equate to facts in any way.

So you sanded your instrument and it sounds different. Paint does not equate to density - perhaps there’s a difference due to reverberation. Perhaps it’s your room. Perhaps it’s just you. There’s zero science and therefore zero fact involved in your anecdote. It’s as useful as a buggy whip or a paperweight. But good job on the condescension.

How is replying “Much Science”, or “Sounds like paint matters” not condescending? Not to mention the ad hominem styled attacks. You replied disrespectfully, you get a response in the style you create. It amazes me how people feel shocked when it happens, then see no fault in their own actions as a catalyst to the scenario at hand.

And, yes, if you hug an acoustic you will change it’s tone. The finish on a poly bass is thick, very thick. It chokes the wood. Why do drummers put tape/foam, etc. on a drum? To change its tone. The tape hinders the vibrations, it chokes it. Removing the finish changed the tone of the bass. But, that’s not the point I was making.

Density affects vibration (sound in water for example), so how does paint not affect the wood it is applied on? It chokes it. How is this not understood, by you though, to translate to wood density affecting tone, the point I was trying to make, that tone woods must matter because they are of different densities? Has nothing to do with the paint. The paint was simply my revelation that structure does matter.

Put your hand on a metal bar, hit it with a drum stick. Take your hand off, hit it with a drum stick. You are essentially arguing, for the obvious sake of arguing, that this isn’t true. Your comments seem trollish because you need clarification on simple concepts, but you do so in a way that sees yourself as elite in thought whereas others are subversive, generally lacking in respect.

And, paper weights are useful. You just can’t figure out what use that is. Big shock.

 

[Solarmist]

Care to speculate on why I got the results I did when I swapped parts between a MIM Precision and a MIA Precision? (way back on page 1 of this thread). I would like to find something I haven't thought of to explain it.

You mentioned "it wasn't the strings ... did you change both sets of strings to the same exact new identical sets on both basses the very same day as your test? With all things being equal, even a set of same type/size strings a week older can make a noticeable difference in sound.

 

[sissy kathy]

You mentioned "it wasn't the strings ... did you change both sets of strings to the same exact new identical sets on both basses the very same day as your test? With all things being equal, even a set of same type/size strings a week older can make a noticeable difference in sound.

The way I read that post was that he swapped strings between the two basses, no new strings involved.

 

[Scottgun]

Truly, it’s a pointless argument anyway. I’ve played some $4-5000 basses that left me thinking “ain’t no way I’m spending that on this” and $350 ones I could whip my card out fast enough to get.

I'd agree except guitar manufacturers market to us and part of that is based on the tonewood thing. If it can be substantiated in any meaningful way, we can say carry on. If it turns out it's marketing BS, then consumers ought to know that.

 

[MtManiac]

How is replying “Much Science”, or “Sounds like paint matters” not condescending? Not to mention the ad hominem styled attacks. You replied disrespectfully, you get a response in the style you create. It amazes me how people feel shocked when it happens, then see no fault in their own actions as a catalyst to the scenario at hand.

And, yes, if you hug an acoustic you will change it’s tone. The finish on a poly bass is thick, very thick. It chokes the wood. Why do drummers put tape/foam, etc. on a drum? To change its tone. The tape hinders the vibrations, it chokes it. Removing the finish changed the tone of the bass. But, that’s not the point I was making.

Density affects vibration (sound in water for example), so how does paint not affect the wood it is applied on? It chokes it. How is this not understood, by you though, to translate to wood density affecting tone, the point I was trying to make, that tone woods must matter because they are of different densities? Has nothing to do with the paint. The paint was simply my revelation that structure does matter.

Put your hand on a metal bar, hit it with a drum stick. Take your hand off, hit it with a drum stick. You are essentially arguing, for the obvious sake of arguing, that this isn’t true. Your comments seem trollish because you need clarification on simple concepts, but you do so in a way that sees yourself as elite in thought whereas others are subversive, generally lacking in respect.

And, paper weights are useful. You just can’t figure out what use that is. Big shock.

I really don’t gaf what you think of me personally but magnetic pickups work because a vibrating metal string is disrupting a magnetic field and an electrical signal is sentvtraveling down a wire to an amplifier. By all means, if paint makes a magical difference to *you* and your ears, by all means do what you like, believe whatever you like, but when I hear something absurd like paint changes tone, without any kind of evidence that’s reliable, consistent, repeatable, or objectively observable, how I reacted is how I’m going to react in the future. If that makes me an a-hole in your eyes, take theee guesses how soundly I’m gonna sleep tonight with that knowledge.

BTW, who said I’m shocked? You don’t know anything at all about my emotional state, and it’s irrelevant anyway. You seem to me quite butthurt, but that doesn’t mean you are.

 

[AboutSweetSue]

I really don’t gaf what you think of me personally but magnetic pickups work because a vibrating metal string is disrupting a magnetic field and an electrical signal is sentvtraveling down a wire to an amplifier. By all means, if paint makes a magical difference to *you* and your ears, by all means do what you like, believe whatever you like, but when I hear something absurd like paint changes tone, without any kind of evidence that’s reliable, consistent, repeatable, or objectively observable, how I reacted is how I’m going to react in the future. If that makes me an a-hole in your eyes, take theee guesses how soundly I’m gonna sleep tonight with that knowledge.

Is that your science? You ever talk to a physicist? They’ll make your head spin. Best keep to what you know.

Can you measure objectively the sight of blue? No, then how can you measure, objectively what I hear? It’s an ad hominem attack.

I’m not even going to explain the paint again. But, I do know that you said “grain” matters. So, how is your entire post not contradictory?

Seems like you, in your own words, “don’t know what you’re talking about.”

And, now, this thread is open to debate about nitro v poly. Good work.

 

[sissy kathy]

I’m not even going to explain the paint again. But, I do know that you said “grain” matters. So, how is your entire post not contradictory?

Seems like you, in your own words, “don’t know what you’re talking about.”

And, now, this thread is open to debate about nitro v poly. Good work.

Wait! That's not fair; if nitro and poly are now open for discussion I want oil to be included, and wax w/oil, and oil w/o wax, and wax alone. Don't forget red paint vs white paint vs black paint vs stain, vs dye. And don't forget tort vs,... wait no, that one's settled.

 

[AboutSweetSue]

Wait! That's not fair; if nitro and poly are now open for discussion I want oil to be included, and wax w/oil, and oil w/o wax, and wax alone. Don't forget red paint vs white paint vs black paint vs stain, vs dye. And don't forget tort vs,... wait no, that one's settled.

Natural is best, just like with _________.


Rhymes with ex.

 

[MtManiac]

I’m not even going to explain the paint again. But, I do know that you said “grain” matters. So, how is your entire post not contradictory?

Seems like you, in your own words, “don’t know what you’re talking about.”

And, now, this thread is open to debate about nitro v poly. Good work.

Umm you brought up paint... so that’s my good work? You take yourself waaay too seriously if you can’t let comments like that roll off, and you can’t seem to step away from the condescension. I honestly thought you were kidding when I first read your comment about paint making a tonal difference, thus my comment. Your explanation didn’t help, but somehow in your eyes that makes me stupid and dense. No, I’m not shocked, this is the internet, it’s 2019, and I’m 49.

My kid repairs Canadian Navy ships for a living. He can definitely tell you that paint is not a structural component, although it seems to have been used that way on some of our frigates.