Digital Mixers. Now adding NAMM 2015 entries

[EastCoastThump]

I agree. If you are mixing from stage I don't understand why you would want an I pad anyway. Just more things to go wrong.

If you wear the sound engineer hat in a self-mixed band, here are a few benefits of wifi control:

• To let you set/tweak your basic sound-check mix from out front.
  
• To let you move to each player's stage position while setting monitor mixes.
  
• To allow players to mix their own monitor (or, better, IEM) from their stage positions.

 

[modulusman]

If you wear the sound engineer hat in a self-mixed band, here are a few benefits of wifi control:

• To let you set/tweak your basic sound-check mix from out front.
  
• To let you move to each player's stage position while setting monitor mixes.
  
• To allow players to mix their own monitor (or, better, IEM) from their stage positions.

Well in my band three of us have wireless systems for our instrument so we can walk out front and hear what needs to be adjusted. Were all on IEMs so your #2 point doesn't apply. As for number 3 the only person who can't walk over to the mixer and adjust his monitor while playing is the drummer.

 

[Geri O]

Well in my band three of us have wireless systems for our instrument so we can walk out front and hear what needs to be adjusted. Were all on IEMs so your #2 point doesn't apply. As for number 3 the only person who can't walk over to the mixer and adjust his monitor while playing is the drummer.

#3 - Get an iPad and a holder, mount it to the stand, and have him use the mixer's iPad app to control his own mix. I'm doing it in our band and I've seen a couple of dozen bands doing it the last few years.

As for mixing, I can walk out with my wireless bass and do some tweaking with the iPhone app (we use an X32). Limited, to be sure, since I have to play during soundcheck, too...

I guess this stuff is kindergarten PA for me, since I left a career doing this stuff for a living. But it was next to no learning curve to figure it out.

I'm also smart to know that if wifi mixing doesn't suit you, I'm not going to keep harping about it to you. The technology is there to make our lives easier. Whether you feel it will be worth the little bit of trouble is totally up to you. I get absolutely nothing for beating the drum advocating this stuff.

One of my major gripes about the older (non-AI) Presonus was tying up a MacBook to run it wirelessly. However, I seem to be the only one that feels this way about it, so I can't legitimately knock it, can I? I'm just thankful that the X32 is a much better choice for our needs.

 

[Geri O]

wait, you're thinking of the wrong thing!

you use auxes for monitors, not groups! each guy in the band gets his own aux out, and can put whatever he wants in it at any loudness level he wants, with no effect on what happens out front.

all these boards can do that easily for at least 4 players, most can do even more.

With all the million ways to do things on the digital mixers these days, just make sure you have the auxes you choose for monitors set to "Pre", as in "pre-fader". That way, a channel's level change to the house mix won't affect your monitor mix. On most all of these mixers, usually the first 4, 6, or 8 auxes are set to "pre" by default.

This is my number 2 call about digital mixers, preceded by setting up the IP settings on the desk for wifi control with a router.

 

[modulusman]

#3 - Get an iPad and a holder, mount it to the stand, and have him use the mixer's iPad app to control his own mix. I'm doing it in our band and I've seen a couple of dozen bands doing it the last few years.

As for mixing, I can walk out with my wireless bass and do some tweaking with the iPhone app (we use an X32). Limited, to be sure, since I have to play during soundcheck, too...

I guess this stuff is kindergarten PA for me, since I left a career doing this stuff for a living. But it was next to no learning curve to figure it out.

I'm also smart to know that if wifi mixing doesn't suit you, I'm not going to keep harping about it to you. The technology is there to make our lives easier. Whether you feel it will be worth the little bit of trouble is totally up to you. I get absolutely nothing for beating the drum advocating this stuff.

One of my major gripes about the older (non-AI) Presonus was tying up a MacBook to run it wirelessly. However, I seem to be the only one that feels this way about it, so I can't legitimately knock it, can I? I'm just thankful that the X32 is a much better choice for our needs.

Since we use IEMs we rarely have to adjust anything even for different rooms. I'm not saying that being able to use an I pad is a bad thing but somehow bands got by with out it for the last 50 years or so. The main reason I went digital is to have less gear to set up and move.

 

[Geri O]

Since we use IEMs we rarely have to adjust anything even for different rooms. I'm not saying that being able to use an I pad is a bad thing but somehow bands got by with out it for the last 50 years or so. The main reason I went digital is to have less gear to set up and move.

Well, you can imagine I have a response for that, too, but you know, it's all good. Sounds ike you have a good working setup and that's the most important thing.

I use the wifi stuff to my advantage. Until 5 years ago, club bands could have never afforded to have anywhere near the features and quality of sound that they/we can these days. No doubt, consistency of the mic from night to night is a big advantage with the digital stuff. And now, instead of a huge heavy FX and/or a processing rack, I can spent that time and energy setting up a mixer and a router. Man, do you realize that it used to take 2 and sometimes 3 guys to set up a console that barely, if at all, approached the capabilities of a little bitty Presonus or an X32? Yeah, I reminisce about the bad l'days every once and a while.....Okay, I apologize, I wasn't going to get into it. Like I said, it's all good.

But one thing hasn't at all changed since the beginnings of sound reinforcement...The gear, then, and the gear, now, will never run itself...

Take care...

 

[modulusman]

Well, you can imagine I have a response for that, too, but you know, it's all good. Sounds ike you have a good working setup and that's the most important thing.

I use the wifi stuff to my advantage. Until 5 years ago, club bands could have never afforded to have anywhere near the features and quality of sound that they/we can these days. No doubt, consistency of the mic from night to night is a big advantage with the digital stuff. And now, instead of a huge heavy FX and/or a processing rack, I can spent that time and energy setting up a mixer and a router. Man, do you realize that it used to take 2 and sometimes 3 guys to set up a console that barely, if at all, approached the capabilities of a little bitty Presonus or an X32? Yeah, I reminisce about the bad l'days every once and a while.....Okay, I apologize, I wasn't going to get into it. Like I said, it's all good.

But one thing hasn't at all changed since the beginnings of sound reinforcement...The gear, then, and the gear, now, will never run itself...

Take care...

I use to do a lot of sound gigs for other bands in bars but now it is maybe 1-2 times a year. If I was still doing a lot of them I would probably get rid of my 16.4.2 and upgrade to an AI or something else that had easy I pad control just to not have to use a snake. That is always a pain in the a**.

 

[4Mal]

I agree. If you are mixing from stage I don't understand why you would want an I pad anyway. Just more things to go wrong.

The reason is simple... The iPad interface gives you a rather 2 dimensional view of the board. No digging into the system menu to get to the EQ for Aux 5. Very streamlined and much, much faster than working the EQ at the board. That in and of it self is a great reason the add an iPad to the 16.4.2 setup.

The board is great - fat channel, the aux mixes, sub-groups, presets... all fantastic but the fully implemented system is way, way better...

 

[walterw]

If you are mixing from stage I don't understand why you would want an I pad anyway.

...the only person who can't walk over to the mixer and adjust his monitor while playing is the drummer.

...something else that had easy I pad control just to not have to use a snake. That is always a pain in the a**.

your question contains its own answer...

(OK, the snake thing doesn't apply when doing your own sound, but being able to adjust things while you're out there instead of running back to the board over and over damn sure does! also, using ipads/iphones to eliminate the walking over to the board to tweak mixes is pretty sweet, especially for the drummer.)

 

[EastCoastThump]

Well in my band three of us have wireless systems for our instrument so we can walk out front and hear what needs to be adjusted. Were all on IEMs so your #2 point doesn't apply. As for number 3 the only person who can't walk over to the mixer and adjust his monitor while playing is the drummer.

I wasn't arguing that you should change how you mix your band's bar gigs. My post was in response to your saying you *don't understand* why *s0c9 or Tunaman, or anyone else* would want wifi control, which I mistakenly took at face value. I get now that you were really just letting us all know not to doubt your personal allegiance to the Old Ways. Noted, and more power to you.

 

[Geri O]

Not to get into the "to wifi or not to wifi" thing...

The Presonus is the only desk that I walked up to and had trouble intuitively figuring it out. And I was on a gig for the first time with this one.

I had set up my MacBook Pro and the router. If I hadn't had the Presonus app, the gig might have not gone so well on my end. The app was easy to figure out and mix with. That's one of my complaints with the Presonus. And I don't expect console makers to break their necks to make them easy and intuitive to operate on the first go, there's a lot under the hood. But I have walked up to PM5Ds, M7CLs, the various Digidesign/Avids, the various Midases, a couple of Digicos, as well as the X32, and the Soundcraft Si. The Presonus was the ONLY one that kicked my butt on the first outing with it. Kind of embarrassing, really, but it happened.

I say I don't hold that against it, but between the sound (to my ear, anyway), the non-motor faders, The need for an computer to run it remotely (and I know, the AI models have eliminated that), the layout, and TRS connectors for all the outputs but the mains, and that first experience, I just never warmed up to the Presonus. And as I've said a few times, I seem to be one of a very few that feel this way about that console.

And that's fine, too...

 

[4Mal]

Geri, do you feel the audio quality of the Behringer is better than that of the Presonus ? I did a few festival playing gigs this year where the B Board was in use. Sounded pretty clear to me through the monitors and while I listened to acts before us. I haven't had a chance to A/B though.

I'm pretty happy with the audio quality of the 16.4.2. It seems to be better than the little Mackie board I also OEM. Not a huge difference and maybe I'm hearing something I want to hear... It's that close for me...

It's funny but like Geri, I took the Presonus board to a gig early... It was painful. I spent the next several weeks of evenings, an hour or two a night a couple of times a week - it wasn't like boot camp or anything -getting to really know the board. Took it out again about 6 weeks late and it was a whole 'nother thing. What sees intuitive to me now was kinda baffling that first gig.

 

[s0c9]

The Presonus is the only desk that I walked up to and had trouble intuitively figuring it out.

It's funny but like Geri, I took the Presonus board to a gig early... It was painful. I spent the next several weeks of evenings, an hour or two a night a couple of times a week - it wasn't like boot camp or anything -getting to really know the board. Took it out again about 6 weeks late and it was a whole 'nother thing. What sees intuitive to me now was kinda baffling that first gig.

Weird... but I had completely the opposite experience with my 16.4.2 for live use.. To be fair, remote control, recording and all was more of a pain to setup than the X32, but the FAT Channel (as I mentioned in another thread) was W-A-Y easy to get down, coming from owing more expensive analog consoles (A&H). I have been really impressed with the X32 sound quality along with it's effects. However, the 16.4.2 is no slouch either.

If I was still running sound for others on a regular basis (too busy playing these days) I would probably go with the X32 Rack and iPad interface. Maybe add in an XR series if I needed additional expansion capability. That would enable me to leave my 24x8 200 foot snake at home

All in all, I have to agree with Geri O... use what works for you.

 

[4Mal]

Oh yeah, fat channel was easy. That's up on top, clearly labeled. For me it was some of the routing stuff. Split mode to get my iPod into the aux mixes for monitor checks, figuring out the sub groups use with the FX... And other stuff found in the menu's... This was my first digital board experience so in retrospect, it was to be expected... I just had to get my head around the design logic. Now it is pretty much second nature... I found the Mackie DL to be really easy to learn... Probably due to what I learned on the 16.4.2...

 

[Geri O]

Geri, do you feel the audio quality of the Behringer is better than that of the Presonus ? I did a few festival playing gigs this year where the B Board was in use. Sounded pretty clear to me through the monitors and while I listened to acts before us. I haven't had a chance to A/B though.

I'm pretty happy with the audio quality of the 16.4.2. It seems to be better than the little Mackie board I also OEM. Not a huge difference and maybe I'm hearing something I want to hear... It's that close for me...

It's funny but like Geri, I took the Presonus board to a gig early... It was painful. I spent the next several weeks of evenings, an hour or two a night a couple of times a week - it wasn't like boot camp or anything -getting to really know the board. Took it out again about 6 weeks late and it was a whole 'nother thing. What sees intuitive to me now was kinda baffling that first gig.

Yeah, I really do feel the X32 is better-sounding, but in a "splitting-hairs" kind of way...

With the same band, mics, PA, and Venue, it did seem to sound better, warmer, more definitive around the edge.

Right when the Behringer X32 first came out, some of the local sound guys organized a shoot-out of sorts between the X32, the Presonus SL24, and a Yamaha LS9. I wasn't really interested in the event, but then I was asked to be the non-caring, non-interested mixer for the shoot-out, which included some playback and a local jazz group.

We did some blind-listening stuff with the playback on all three consoles and 22 audio guys were asked to pick their favorites. The PA was the new (at the time) VUE series of powered speakers, which I gotta say, sounded awesome. When the results were tallied, 9 of the 22 guys picked the X32 as their favorite console. What took us all by surprise was that the lowly long-in-the-tooth Yamaha LS9 (which was a LOT more expensive than the other two) was picked by 7 of the guys while the Presonus was picked by the remaining 6 guys. Everyone agreed, it was very difficult to choose a favorite. For grins, we ran the test again and this time, the results were all over the place, including a few who gave up and stated that they couldn't tell a difference.

So these shoot-outs can be helpful. Or not...

I give the nod to the X32 for several reasons, which I think I've listed ad naueum here. But I'll not declare that everyone should be using this one or that one and you're crazy if you don't listen to my advice. They all will get the job done very nicely.

Now, everyone get busy with those NYE gigs!!...

 

[4Mal]

Amen to that. We'll talk, er type next year!

 

[musicman7722]

Check out my website it could help.

Link Removed

 

[musicman7722]

Waiting on the Behringer XR18 X-Air. It's not shipping yet but has a killer set of features for $699 retail. I'm still gigging with my Mackie DL1608 and would recommend that also, especially if you can get a deal on one and if you already are iPad/iPhone ready. The latest MasterFader v3 app has really added value to the mixer.

Yes but if you use the new app 3.01. You can't use iPhones at this time!

 

[thoward]

I realise this has been going a few days but just to throw a couple of my experiences into the ring-

The iPad mixing is good enough I think to make the X32 rack almost usable alone for a live situation. We have an X32 rack and a full sized X32 console, and even with the full console I still run an iPad by my side as I use the full console - as mentioned some of the features (EQs, some mon sends, etc) and just faster on the iPad than even on the full console.
The X32 rack does have front controls which in theory do give you adjustment of all the parameters, so you aren't in the dark, but you wouldn't want to operate by it. You might be able to do some clever things with little units like the BCF2000 to give control of 8 channels but I haven't tried that in the flesh yet.

The X32 and X32-Rack together do make a good pair, as the X32-Rack can be used as a stage box (in place of an S16), but unlike the S16 can also perform the proper processing duties for the gigs that are smaller than need the full X32 console, and can be run from an iPad.

The SM Pro Audio UMix series do look great, but we pre-ordered one, being assured a delivery date "within one or two weeks" - this was in August 2014 - they have been perpetually "one or two weeks from shipping!" for months now. The price point does look great though and the iPad interface is excellent, being designed for touchscreen from the outset rather than being a digital copy of an analogue layout (things like gain on sliders rather than onscreen rotary pots) - however since we found the iPad app of the Behringer so usable we cancelled the UMix pre-orders as we didn't want to have to get familiar with two apps if using the other manufacturer for the smaller gigs.

 

[thoward]

Just to add having read the thread a bit more thoroughly - that idea about using up Subgroups for Auxes, etc, isn't that unusual - when you think about it an Subgroup and an Aux are essentially both mix buses, only the Subgroup is a fixed post-fade bus, and the Aux is a variable bus - the Yamaha LS9 doesn't distinguish between groups and auxes and just has 16 'mix buses' which can be configured as either - but you get 16 total - so 8 of each, 16 subgroups and no auxes, 16 axes but no subgroups, etc. This is excluding DCAs/VCAs (of which the LS9 doesn't have any anyway) - but the X32 does - X32 has 16x buses and 8x DCAs - so would have to create a fixed bus send and lose an aux to have a subgroup - but with DCAs this is less of an issue anyway. (If you are reading this be sure you know what DCAs are as they are very different to mix buses - don't actually group or pass the audio - they are a digital implementation of VCAs)

Also - 99.9% sure none of the PreSonus StudioLive range is actually motorised fader - it's only some of the features that are digital - so when adjusted by iPad the fader won't actually move on the desk - whereas X32 and QU16 will.