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Digital wireless snake?
- Thread starter DuraMorte
- Start date
At this point it's too risky - have already asked.
when the signal cuts the band is shut off.
Cat5 cable is cheap and easy to find.
when the signal cuts the band is shut off.
Cat5 cable is cheap and easy to find.
It seems that if it could be implemented well, it would be awesome. Setup/positioning FOH would be easier and it would be less bulky.
However, think of the bandwidth required. And with our current wireless technology, reliability is certainly an issue.
Another possibility would be using a dedicated WiFi network, for snake channels, returns, and even MIDI, all streamed between equipment. Assuming the latency could be kept low enough, the possibilities for such a system would be rather astounding.
However, think of the bandwidth required. And with our current wireless technology, reliability is certainly an issue.
Another possibility would be using a dedicated WiFi network, for snake channels, returns, and even MIDI, all streamed between equipment. Assuming the latency could be kept low enough, the possibilities for such a system would be rather astounding.
Hactar said:
Why not? Granted, latency may be an issue going that route, but I would think the bandwidth would be enough to handle 20-28 channels of 44.1kHz, 24-bit audio. I mean, if Firewire400 can do it, I would think a gigabit wireless system could manage.
Have a rackmount I/O box on either side, one in the amp rack, one in the FOH rack. Run all your mic cables to the amp rack (through a standard snake for large stages, or straight to the box on smaller ones) and run your returns straight to the amps. On the FOH side, run cables from the snake unit to the board and back. Simple, easy, no annoying snake or Cat5 running through or around the dance floor.
Of course, if a company went to the trouble of designing and building such a device, they would probably charge through the nose for it, which would put it out of reach for most bands.
One thing that would concern me with such a system is the limited distance of WiFi signal. It might be necessary to go over-the-air for larger venues and outdoor shows. That introduces a whole new set of problems, but I'm sure they're surmountable.
Ah, this is my meat+potatoes (icango.net).
Trust me, wireless latency IS a problem. I never, ever use a wireless connection when I need to have near-zero latency. The technology does exist to get around the latency problem, it's just that its commercial availability is a problem because of cost and (possibly) rack space. I'm not talking about reducing the latency problem, I'm talking about making it essentially zero. It's not the hardware -- it's the code, which would have to be tiny and would have to be written to violate several programming best practices in order to run as fast as possible. And the hardware clock speeds would have to be almost microwave-class fast. (We're getting into DoD-class mindsets.)
Another factor is that there are free toolkits available now that will let you hack just about any WiFi connection. That includes the newer WPA/WPA2/PSK. (It used to be only the older WEP that was risky.) One way is to grab the first handshake, and if you can (it's not that hard if you're patient), then you own the network.
You're probably saying, "Yeah well, duh, you wouldn't want to run in WiFi space -- you'd want your own private bandwidth to run in!" Ok, if a wireless snake vendor were to write his own network stack, with its own Fort Knox-class access+encryption scheme... maybe, maybe I'd consider it. But I'd want to see the whitepaper first, for sure. Also, the frequency range would have to be well outside where any+all WiFi radios operate today, so that no WiFi antenna anywhere would be able to "see" it, even if the antenna were heavily modified.
Here's the real problem: Anything is hackable. You can bet someone somewhere would come up with a way to hack that digital snake's megabuck security protocol if it became known that it was a standard among the digital snake vendors at the arena-class venues. Grab the board feed and record it, inject some Taylor Swift into an Evanescence live mix -- whatever you need. At what percentage probability does the risk become acceptable? If I were a tour manager, I wouldn't even want to go there.
Trust me, wireless latency IS a problem. I never, ever use a wireless connection when I need to have near-zero latency. The technology does exist to get around the latency problem, it's just that its commercial availability is a problem because of cost and (possibly) rack space. I'm not talking about reducing the latency problem, I'm talking about making it essentially zero. It's not the hardware -- it's the code, which would have to be tiny and would have to be written to violate several programming best practices in order to run as fast as possible. And the hardware clock speeds would have to be almost microwave-class fast. (We're getting into DoD-class mindsets.)
Another factor is that there are free toolkits available now that will let you hack just about any WiFi connection. That includes the newer WPA/WPA2/PSK. (It used to be only the older WEP that was risky.) One way is to grab the first handshake, and if you can (it's not that hard if you're patient), then you own the network.
You're probably saying, "Yeah well, duh, you wouldn't want to run in WiFi space -- you'd want your own private bandwidth to run in!" Ok, if a wireless snake vendor were to write his own network stack, with its own Fort Knox-class access+encryption scheme... maybe, maybe I'd consider it. But I'd want to see the whitepaper first, for sure. Also, the frequency range would have to be well outside where any+all WiFi radios operate today, so that no WiFi antenna anywhere would be able to "see" it, even if the antenna were heavily modified.
Here's the real problem: Anything is hackable. You can bet someone somewhere would come up with a way to hack that digital snake's megabuck security protocol if it became known that it was a standard among the digital snake vendors at the arena-class venues. Grab the board feed and record it, inject some Taylor Swift into an Evanescence live mix -- whatever you need. At what percentage probability does the risk become acceptable? If I were a tour manager, I wouldn't even want to go there.
Hi.
If You actually have something to show to the patent atorney rather than just an idea, go ahead.
He'll probably tell You that there's multiple patents pending already.
It's not that it's a new idea, ever since the first wireless units for instruments, there's been a need and applications for multi channel operation.
Too bad they worked even worse than the ones for instruments.
Digital was going to change all that, but since the wireless transmission "explosion" begun, there's magnitudes more other traffic than MI on the radio waves, the MI applications get pushed and shoved into narrower and narrower slots.
Buy a system today, and in a years time it may be operating on an illegal band.
We are also quickly running out of the available frequencies. The need for more bandwith increases more rapidly than the thechnology allows.
Wireless audio in individual use will be easily expendable, that we all can be sure of.
Up until something drastic happens in RF field, we won't see multi channel RF "digital snakes".
IMHO anyway.
Regards
Sam
If You actually have something to show to the patent atorney rather than just an idea, go ahead.
He'll probably tell You that there's multiple patents pending already.
It's not that it's a new idea, ever since the first wireless units for instruments, there's been a need and applications for multi channel operation.
Too bad they worked even worse than the ones for instruments.
Digital was going to change all that, but since the wireless transmission "explosion" begun, there's magnitudes more other traffic than MI on the radio waves, the MI applications get pushed and shoved into narrower and narrower slots.
Buy a system today, and in a years time it may be operating on an illegal band.
We are also quickly running out of the available frequencies. The need for more bandwith increases more rapidly than the thechnology allows.
Wireless audio in individual use will be easily expendable, that we all can be sure of.
Up until something drastic happens in RF field, we won't see multi channel RF "digital snakes".
IMHO anyway.
Regards
Sam
Actually a lot of people are getting rid of snakes in favor of wifi controllers. All audio stays on the stage and the controller can be a laptop, ipad, or a traditional console. No latency and no snake to carry.
This used to be really expensive, but it's changing. Mackie's iPad controlled board great. With two ipads you have separate monitor control. Individual monitor control via iPhone is not far off.
And I can't believe I'm about to say this, Behringer has one also that's really good.
This used to be really expensive, but it's changing. Mackie's iPad controlled board great. With two ipads you have separate monitor control. Individual monitor control via iPhone is not far off.
And I can't believe I'm about to say this, Behringer has one also that's really good.
This is the way it will happen. There is no reason to get all that audio data wireless to the control booth. All that can be on the side of the stage, wired and wireless depending, and then the sound guy just has a wifi controller. The amount of data to and from the controller would be small, just what's needed to feed the display with data, and then send off the user commands back to the stage system.
If, for building layout design and control of equipment reasons, the venue people want to keep the expensive computer hardware near a control booth away from stage, a traditional snake seems like great value in combination with a mixer with regular inputs. What would change is if companies built the next generation of digital mixers with a removable input section, all the XLR and 1/4" inputs, preamp and A/D converts, comes off and connects to the rest via an RJ45 cable (or two). (Not paying for the preamp+A/D twice, would make it more efficient)
We've been doing this for a couple of years now, it works pretty well. We have an iPad wi-fi'd up to a yamaha pro-mix that is kept onstage. It's not perfect, ocassionally it drops the signal, but that doesn't interrupt the mix at all. The iPad software has limited control of the mix (by our design) so our "soundman" really only controls a few mix parameters (ie: overal mains volume and vocal level, FX level, drum mix level..)
It's been working out really well so far.
