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Dilemma - What Would You Do?

#22
Bulldog23 said:
All good advice guys. JMATTBASSPLAYA - thanks for your input as well.

Another thing I haven't shared is there is a history of any of my input towards strategy, business, marketing, etc. being totally discounted from both my bandmates and the manager. However, if any of the same advice is provided by an outsider, suddenly its valid. I have much more experience than any of the other members. We make great music together and can hang out, but we are not on the same page at all when it comes to business decisions.

In the last few minutes I just received an ultimatum from the band - anything I want to do must be cleared through them first, and that any other gigs I book on open dates must be canceled if anything comes up for the band. In essence, they say "JUMP" and I say "HOW HIGH?"

I understand where the band is coming from with having the need to book gigs and know that everyone is available. However, I have a real problem with not being on the same page business wise, and them wanting to dictate my life. If I was on paid retainer and everyone was on the same page it might be different, but that's not the case.
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No lie, your first paragraph described me to a T not even 3-4 months ago. I had all these great ideas for my band but they were constantly being shot down or ignored. But of course when someone else in the band, or someone outside the band, brought up the same idea a month down the road the idea was suddenly brilliant, and my bandmates would ask, "why hadn't we thought of this before?" :scowl: Fortunately, my situation has since changed and I'm now the quasi band leader. Go figure, right? lol

As far as that second paragraph is concerned - they're trying to take control of you. IMHO, you shouldn't let them. You need to put them in their place and make them realize that a band needs to be built upon respect. Her not respecting your prior commitment and expecting you to bend isn't cool. This isn't about you not being loyal to your band - you are. It's about your band not being loyal to you and respecting you as a musician and a man who has made a commitment and now needs to stick to his word.
 
#24
Based on the information you provided I would feel ethically bound to do the fill in gig, but others may see it differently.

From a practical point of view, I would be asking myself just how important this main band is...ie how much I should sacrifice to be part of it. My answer assumes it's just another band, not the next Beatles or something.

Based on what you have said, the band went off the road, you cleared with management before taking the other gig, and they didn't say "...but if we get something you will have to cancel." You did the right thing and they didn't. If I were in your shoes I would accept their ultimatum and resign effective immediately, being as nice and as non-confrontational as I could about it. I would point out to all of them that I had cleared the sub gig with them first. They may back down, which would be nice, but if you roll over this time you will have to roll over again and again in future.
 
#25
fingerbun said:
Based on the information you provided I would feel ethically bound to do the fill in gig, but others may see it differently.

From a practical point of view, I would be asking myself just how important this main band is...ie how much I should sacrifice to be part of it. My answer assumes it's just another band, not the next Beatles or something.

Based on what you have said, the band went off the road, you cleared with management before taking the other gig, and they didn't say "...but if we get something you will have to cancel." You did the right thing and they didn't. If I were in your shoes I would accept their ultimatum and resign effective immediately, being as nice and as non-confrontational as I could about it. I would point out to all of them that I had cleared the sub gig with them first. They may back down, which would be nice, but if you roll over this time you will have to roll over again and again in future.
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I actually didn't even consider that.

According to their ultimatum, you have to clear things with them first. Well, didn't you do just that in this instance? I'd point that out to them and say, "Hey, I actually did exactly what you're now asking me to do! How can you be mad?"
 
#26
jmattbassplaya said:
I actually didn't even consider that.

According to their ultimatum, you have to clear things with them first. Well, didn't you do just that in this instance? I'd point that out to them and say, "Hey, I actually did exactly what you're now asking me to do! How can you be mad?"
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To be fair, the ultimatum includes a requirement to cancel. If that's the agreed rule it must be abided by in future. If it's agreed. I am assuming it was not previously agreed but is a new condition.

Mind you, I wouldn't agree to the rule in these circumstances.

The deal is one sided. From op's other thread, the band manager is the guitarist's mum and he is being asked to sign over all merch, cd sales AND SONGWRITING to the band. IMO you are either an equal partner or a paid sideman, he is being asked to accept the worst of both worlds, and when I have tried that it ends in tears.
 
#27
Bulldog23 said:
In the last few minutes I just received an ultimatum from the band - anything I want to do must be cleared through them first, and that any other gigs I book on open dates must be canceled if anything comes up for the band. In essence, they say "JUMP" and I say "HOW HIGH?"
Click to expand...

I'd say that you should honor your word to the band that you're subbing for. The other band abandoned you. You told them that you were booked on a particular day, and they ignored that. They are the people without honor, and that sort of reputation gets around fast.

10cents says that you won't be in this band by Monday, and you'll be forging ahead in your new career as a subbing bassist in the area whilst looking for the next upwards move :bassist:.

From what we've heard today, there are just too many issues with this band for it to last.
 
#28
Availability and loyalty are two different issues, and they should be discussed as such. Loyalty is an emotion laden word, and easily used for manipulative purposes.

Loyalty is a two way thing. The guys decided to take a break for about a month, which would have left you without a gig for several weekends. In my circles, it would be totally understandable if you took some extra gigs during a band's hiatus. If we're loyal to the guy, we would make some concessions so the guy can stay in the project. It doesn't sound like these guys are willing to make concessions on your behalf, but it sounds like they want you to make concessions on theirs. If the music and financial aspects are real good, maybe you could live with it, because relationally it's f-ed up.

When a band brings up the question of your loyalty, it's reasonable to question theirs. IME, and my cynical opinion, most folks who bring up those issues only view it in terms of loyalty towards them and rarely give much thought about extending it towards you.
 
#31
Bulldog23 said:
Another thing I haven't shared is there is a history of any of my input towards strategy, business, marketing, etc. being totally discounted from both my bandmates and the manager. However, if any of the same advice is provided by an outsider, suddenly its valid. I have much more experience than any of the other members. We make great music together and can hang out, but we are not on the same page at all when it comes to business decisions.

In the last few minutes I just received an ultimatum from the band - anything I want to do must be cleared through them first, and that any other gigs I book on open dates must be canceled if anything comes up for the band. In essence, they say "JUMP" and I say "HOW HIGH?"
Click to expand...

OK, this is an absolute & utter crock! :mad:

IMO, the matter is no longer an issue of availability - or even of communication. It is about respect - or more precisely, a lack of respect.

The fact that they ignore your input on business issues is problematic enough. But to, in essence, put you on the hook for their flakiness, by giving you an ultimatum (?!:eyebrow:) to cancel your own gigs anytime they decide they take a band gig - no matter on how short notice or how inconveniencing to you - shows complete and total disrespect for you, for your time and for your own side activities. Not to mention the damage that's done to your reputation as you bail out on one commitment after another - at their whim.

The respectful thing to do is for them to take responsibility for their own schedule(s), then to communicate their own availability to you and to the manager - just as soon in advance as they've determined it. Everyone disciplines himself/herself to manage by the schedule - and that means first come, first served. Period.

In my opinion, it's high time to sit down and work out some new rules & guidelines - some that respect everyone's input and everyone's time - including yours. This would have been necessary sooner or later. It seems that circumstances have brought matters to a head now - so deal with them now. :eyebrow:

If, despite your best efforts, you can't renegotiate terms & conditions successfully, then I would say you have no other choice but to walk. Next time, get this kind of stuff sorted at the outset - before it becomes a crisis. :hmm:

MM
 
#32
dbd1963 said:
There's the right thing to do as a human being, and then there's the right thing to do as a musician.
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There's no disconnect here - there only appears to be. There is only the right thing to do...and any other choice.

dbd1963 said:
You already know the right one as a human being, but as a musician, you simply *must* do the gig with your band. That's the bridge you don't want to burn.
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It seems to me that the rest of the band has forced this difficult choice onto the OP, when it was completely unnecessary for them to have done so. Not only have they demonstrated their extreme disrespect for him, but their ultimatum to him virtually guarantees that they will pull this kind of stunt again. And again. And again.

It's a slippery slope. At what point does the bridge ultimately become one that's no longer worth saving from the fire? :eyebrow:

Jim Nazium said:
I would do the sub gig, and tell the band's manager that it's up to her to find a sub for you since she booked the gig knowing you were already committed.
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Exactly... :eyebrow:

MM
 
#33
Send the band manager some vaseline and see to it that it is used the when she screws the next bass player.

It is unrealistic to expect a musician to be that committed without a good financial reason. Tell them the manager screwed them on this one because you cleared the date and she knew you were not available.
 
#34
I had recent situation that's sort of in the same ballpark.

We had a short tour planned (couple of weeks). Our agent called wanting to add another week at a club that was right in the area we were traveling to, decent money, lodging, etc. Our drummer had a commitment for two gigs in town during that week. Wasn't something he could easily sub out as he's triggering sound effects that go along with a video feed with an embedded click track.

I told him I understood that he had to honor that commitment. He told me that he understood if we had to take the extra week to help out our bottom line, and that if we had to get a sub to do that then so be it, no hard feelings.

We're about to go out for another run, and this time he's subbing out a couple of gigs so that he can go with us.

See how that works? Mutual respect and understanding. Wasn't his fault we had to add some dates, wasn't our fault he had a previous commitment for those dates.
 
#35
dbd1963 said:
There's the right thing to do as a human being, and then there's the right thing to do as a musician.

You already know the right one as a human being, but as a musician, you simply *must* do the gig with your band. That's the bridge you don't want to burn.
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Why?

Leaving aside ethical issues, look at it practically. There are two bridges here.

One bridge is to someone who OP knows, who is calling him for extra work and is a possibility to grow.

The other is a band treating OP badly, and possibly making his continued membership of the band untenable.

Strategically, standing up to the band will either force them to change their ways or (more likely) result in an end to an unworkable situation.

Put it this way....let's suppose this band cracks it big. Given how they have treated OP, why should he expect to be taken along for the ride?
 
#37
Doesn't matter if they crack it big, because the Mom will be getting all the money.

Besides that, they won't. All the business decisions are being made by someone with zero experience in the music business. As far as I can tell there's no money being generated anyway, it's all a bunch of if's and when's. Personally I'd walk. Being treated like a hired gun when you're not being paid is unacceptable in ANY situation.
 
#38
carl h. said:
Send the band manager some vaseline and see to it that it is used the when she screws the next bass player.

It is unrealistic to expect a musician to be that committed without a good financial reason. Tell them the manager screwed them on this one because you cleared the date and she knew you were not available.
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Seems legit.

If you take it once... you know what to expect next time!:crying:
 

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