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Dirty Power

Just confirmed that my kitchen fridge is on the same circuit breaker as the wall outlet I've been plugging my amp into for 7 years. The outlet is 15-18 ft. away in another room, on another wall. This apartment was built when America was on top of the world (late 60s), allegedly :facepalm:
May or may not be an issue. Probably not.
 
Plugged into a socket not on that circuit breaker later in the day, no real noise difference. Oh well. Hum Debugger pedal it is :D (it's more of an issue with my Strat [humbuckers are 8-9dB quieter, but not completely bucked]).
Be aware (and I’ve just realized it after three years of use as I had put it off for a test) that the Hum Debugger impacts the tone a bit. Here too, my home studio is noisy and there is only one specific position where it’s tolerable with single coil basses particularly…

It’s like the sound is a little bit less clear and a bit « chorusy ». The Hum Debugger probably cancels the hum by adding it out of phase to the original signal with some DSP trickery.

Now, I’m considering shielding all my basses but I’m not sure it will help for my Squier P51 and the Gretsch Junior Jet II.

My other basses are also a bit affected to different degrees as I’ve tested them a lot this week after realizing the « tone coloring » with the EHX Hum Debugger.

Looks more like EMF/RFI in my case than dirty power though. Knowing for sure it could improve a bit, even my single coils, I would start to shield all of them.

I only have one fully shielded bass, a parts Jazz that I’ve built to use at school and I’ve put conductive sticky copper tape in all cavities.
 
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Ok, I think I have my answer in this thread Shielding - Fact or Fiction?

…that links this page from Bill Lawrence : [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Conclusion (I think): it will lessen the interferences so I could play without worrying about the exact orientation of my neck in the room. It won’t kill the 60 Hz single coil hum but I’m probably affected by 60 Hz single coil hum AND EMI/RFI.
 
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Be aware (and I’ve just realized it after three years of use as I had put it off for a test) that the Hum Debugger impacts the tone a bit. Here too, my home studio is noisy and there is only one specific position where it’s tolerable with single coil basses particularly…

It’s like the sound is a little bit less clear and a bit « chorusy ». The Hum Debugger probably cancels the hum by adding it out of phase to the original signal with some DSP trickery.

Now, I’m considering shielding all my basses but I’m not sure it will help for my Squier P51 and the Gretsch Junior Jet II.

My other basses are also a bit affected to different degrees as I’ve tested them a lot this week after realizing the « tone coloring » with the EHX Hum Debugger.

Looks more like EMF/RFI in my case than dirty power though. Knowing for sure it could improve a bit, even my single coils, I would start to shield all of them.

I only have one fully shielded bass, a parts Jazz that I’ve built to use at school and I’ve put conductive sticky copper tape in all cavities.

Noticed a lot of chatter about the Hum Debugger that way, but the demo vids didn't dissuade me like seeing how to properly use an NS-2 did. Seems like the notch at 60Hz for the hum might affect some lower register notes in the same frequency area (worse for bass), some others noted audible comb filtering, some others said it sounds like a slight compressor with high frequency roll off. Figure if I hate it, I can send it back.

I shielded and grounded this Strat from scratch, but I did forget to shield the jack cavity. No idea if that's contributing (probably not considering the pickups are in a different part of the body cavity). There's probably 30 wifi routers within signal range of my apartment. I'm on a hill, so could be catching lots of stray radio signal EMI. Who knows what's going on inside the other nearby units. It is Los Angeles after all.

The power lines on the poles outside my apartment also audible sizzle sometimes.

I don't really have the ability to crank my bass amps in my apartment, but noise doesn't seem to be an issue with my Stingray through headphones.
 
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Noticed a lot of chatter about the Hum Debugger that way, but the demo vids didn't dissuade me like seeing how to properly use an NS-2 did. Seems like the notch at 60Hz for the hum might affect some lower register notes in the same frequency area (worse for bass), some others noted audible comb filtering, some others said it sounds like a slight compressor with high frequency roll off. Figure if I hate it, I can send it back.

I shielded and grounded this Strat from scratch, but I did forget to shield the jack cavity. No idea if that's contributing (probably not considering the pickups are in a different part of the body cavity). There's probably 30 wifi routers within signal range of my apartment. I'm on a hill, so could be catching lots of stray radio signal EMI. Who knows what's going on inside the other nearby units. It is Los Angeles after all.

The power lines on the poles outside my apartment also audible sizzle sometimes.

I don't really have the ability to crank my bass amps in my apartment, but noise doesn't seem to be an issue with my Stingray through headphones.
Did the shielding on the Strat helped… or not?
 
Plugged into a socket not on that circuit breaker later in the day, no real noise difference. Oh well. Hum Debugger pedal it is :D (it's more of an issue with my Strat [humbuckers are 8-9dB quieter, but not completely bucked]).
If the noise is entering through the pickups as radiated emissions, then it's not coming from the power receptacle that the amp is plugged into.

This is why I do structured troubleshooting on stuff like this, by eliminating what it isn't, it's easier to determine what it might actually be.
 
If the noise is entering through the pickups as radiated emissions, then it's not coming from the power receptacle that the amp is plugged into.

This is why I do structured troubleshooting on stuff like this, by eliminating what it isn't, it's easier to determine what it might actually be.
Sounds like ATS/Kepner Tregoe talk.
 
This is a great read of a thread guys! I'll add a few thoughts. I repair portable generators with my wife and I's small engine business.

"Dirty Power" means a few things. Mains frequency is 60hz here in US, 50HZ in Europe. Dirty is said when there are voltages at higher frequencies/harmonics such as 120hz, 240hz, etc. This is known professionally as "Total Harmonic Distortion." This in basic terms means there are voltages at higher frequencies is not utilized by the device/load and since the energy cannot be utilized, it is wasted as excess heat. Over time this can cause devices to fail. In practice however with audio gear, the power supplies are overbuilt to handle this. Also the NEC spec here in the USA is utility grid power will not exceed 5% THD Total Harmonic Distortion. As such this is less of an issue in general. There are filter devices caled line/load reactors that present high impedance/resistance to these higher harmonics with voltages at them, but they are physically crazy large and expensive. Not practical at the residential level.

Dirty power when referring to electromagnetic interference / radio frequency interference (EMI/RFI) is more commonly associated with Dirty Power. This is caused by other devices radiating trash signals back through the audio device and mains circuitry you are using and that is harder to track down. Despite the difficulty, there are many devices to help filter and solve this.

Power Conditioners are not all created equal.

- Some only provide MOV (Metal Oxide Varistors) that are meant for surge protection. They are connected between the line and neutral wires, and will only start conducting at a far higher voltage (in the thousands of volts) than 120/240, basically shorting those spikes to ground. Too much of a surge and those MOVs sacrifice themselves to save your gear. These may or MAY NOT cause the branch breaker to trip.

- Other power conditioners add an inductor, AKA common mode choke to present a high resistance in the kilohertz range to suppress any EMI/RFI on the AC lines that can be found on AC lines where other devices are inducing this interference such as Wifi Routers, wireless devices, inferior SMPS, and many others.

- A "line voltage regulator" can have all the above, and use an autoformer, a type of transformer with different taps to keep the incoming line voltage going to your equipment in a safe range, and disconnect the mains when it is unable to be regulated as the line voltage incoming is too low/high.

Finally on gear in general, some switchmode power supplies that run them are not properly filtered, even expensive gear. If not filtered the internal DSP chips clock frequency (normally way above the audio spectrum) and switch mode frequency thats converting the mains voltage to lower VDC will modulate into the audio spectrum back through the power lines. A phenomena called "heterodyning" where two or more high frequency signals combine to create a lower frequency of the source ones, that is often known as the switch mode power whine, pulsing, warbling, buzzing commonly described as. There are special filters from Corcom that deal with fixing these issues, but may not be cheap. Some are though.

There plenty of ground loop isolators via audio interconnect, and I know a few AC line products people have reported success. Even ground loops through your rack gear is an issue, lookup Hum-Frees. Always try to power all your gear on one circuit, or if you need more power, make sure your studio is run by a separate sub panel where all the ground wires converge to one common bus bar. If all the earth grounds are at the same voltage potential, there will be no ground plane noise


Finally, always shield your guitars. Adding copper tape or copper based paint to an electronics cavity acts as a Faraday cage to shield any outside interference. Videos below of how much that can make a difference.


Fender Ultra Precision bass



 
This is a great read of a thread guys! I'll add a few thoughts. I repair portable generators with my wife and I's small engine business.

"Dirty Power" means a few things. Mains frequency is 60hz here in US, 50HZ in Europe. Dirty is said when there are voltages at higher frequencies/harmonics such as 120hz, 240hz, etc. This is known professionally as "Total Harmonic Distortion." This in basic terms means there are voltages at higher frequencies is not utilized by the device/load and since the energy cannot be utilized, it is wasted as excess heat. Over time this can cause devices to fail. In practice however with audio gear, the power supplies are overbuilt to handle this. Also the NEC spec here in the USA is utility grid power will not exceed 5% THD Total Harmonic Distortion. As such this is less of an issue in general. There are filter devices caled line/load reactors that present high impedance/resistance to these higher harmonics with voltages at them, but they are physically crazy large and expensive. Not practical at the residential level.

Dirty power when referring to electromagnetic interference / radio frequency interference (EMI/RFI) is more commonly associated with Dirty Power. This is caused by other devices radiating trash signals back through the audio device and mains circuitry you are using and that is harder to track down. Despite the difficulty, there are many devices to help filter and solve this.

Power Conditioners are not all created equal.

- Some only provide MOV (Metal Oxide Varistors) that are meant for surge protection. They are connected between the line and neutral wires, and will only start conducting at a far higher voltage (in the thousands of volts) than 120/240, basically shorting those spikes to ground. Too much of a surge and those MOVs sacrifice themselves to save your gear. These may or MAY NOT cause the branch breaker to trip.

- Other power conditioners add an inductor, AKA common mode choke to present a high resistance in the kilohertz range to suppress any EMI/RFI on the AC lines that can be found on AC lines where other devices are inducing this interference such as Wifi Routers, wireless devices, inferior SMPS, and many others.

- A "line voltage regulator" can have all the above, and use an autoformer, a type of transformer with different taps to keep the incoming line voltage going to your equipment in a safe range, and disconnect the mains when it is unable to be regulated as the line voltage incoming is too low/high.

Finally on gear in general, some switchmode power supplies that run them are not properly filtered, even expensive gear. If not filtered the internal DSP chips clock frequency (normally way above the audio spectrum) and switch mode frequency thats converting the mains voltage to lower VDC will modulate into the audio spectrum back through the power lines. A phenomena called "heterodyning" where two or more high frequency signals combine to create a lower frequency of the source ones, that is often known as the switch mode power whine, pulsing, warbling, buzzing commonly described as. There are special filters from Corcom that deal with fixing these issues, but may not be cheap. Some are though.

There plenty of ground loop isolators via audio interconnect, and I know a few AC line products people have reported success. Even ground loops through your rack gear is an issue, lookup Hum-Frees. Always try to power all your gear on one circuit, or if you need more power, make sure your studio is run by a separate sub panel where all the ground wires converge to one common bus bar. If all the earth grounds are at the same voltage potential, there will be no ground plane noise


Finally, always shield your guitars. Adding copper tape or copper based paint to an electronics cavity acts as a Faraday cage to shield any outside interference. Videos below of how much that can make a difference.


Fender Ultra Precision bass




Good read, thanks! I guess the infamous coil whine for GPU's or CPU's would enter in one of those categories? Due to computer power supplies? Or not?
 
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Most equipment can use the harmonics, generally up to ~400Hz, but ripple current noise injected into the supply ground may be noisier because the ear is more sensitive to the higher frequencies.

Note that copper shielding is not effective against low frequency (50/60Hz) interference.
 
Good read, thanks! I guess the infamous coil whine for GPU's or CPU's would enter in one of those categories? Due to computer power supplies? Or not?

Yes, possible. A lot of that switch mode frequency noise is dumped on the ground rails, and if there are multiple ground planes the difference in voltage potential between them is very minuscule in the millivolt range but that can have a drastic effect on the noise floor.
 
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Ahhhh!!! I’ve shielded my Squier PBass 51 VM and there is great improvement! Still humming as it’s a single coil but much quieter for the remaining interferences…. but….

I still have to stay in a specific position with my neck pointing toward the « sweet spot ». It’s not specific to shielded/non shielded/single/humbucker/jazz/PBass, they all have to be played in this orientation.

I’m surrounded by tube amps so maybe it has a bit to do with this (xformers radiating).

The electric panel was replaced two months ago (a new one with 200 Amp instead of the old 100) but I didn’t heard any difference. Not better, not worst.

I’ve used Amazon sticky conductive copper tape and obviously checked for continuity between each cavities and signal/earth ground.

No dimmers here but a big electric transformer (for the area power distribution) is right behind our house in a post.
 
BTW, there was already shielded paint in the two cavities but they weren’t connected together. I’ve routed a 18 or 20 solid copper AVG cable through the channel, then stripped and soldered the two ends on the copper tape.

I’ll get rid of the EHX Hum Debugger now as it really alter the tone: mushier and less with a bit of phasing.

The pickup was replaced by the previous owner (he gave me the old OEM one too in the sale) with a SD Antiquity II.
 
Yes, possible. A lot of that switch mode frequency noise is dumped on the ground rails, and if there are multiple ground planes the difference in voltage potential between them is very minuscule in the millivolt range but that can have a drastic effect on the noise floor.

There's a lot of work that goes along with designing switchmode power supplies for audio applications. The noise is not dumped indiscriminately anywhere, not if you want your product to be quiet and also pass EMC regulations. The current is carefully steered away from sensitive paths so as not to corrupt the noise floor.

Ahhhh!!! I’ve shielded my Squier PBass 51 VM and there is great improvement! Still humming as it’s a single coil but much quieter for the remaining interferences…. but….

I still have to stay in a specific position with my neck pointing toward the « sweet spot ». It’s not specific to shielded/non shielded/single/humbucker/jazz/PBass, they all have to be played in this orientation.

I’m surrounded by tube amps so maybe it has a bit to do with this (xformers radiating).

The electric panel was replaced two months ago (a new one with 200 Amp instead of the old 100) but I didn’t heard any difference. Not better, not worst.

I’ve used Amazon sticky conductive copper tape and obviously checked for continuity between each cavities and signal/earth ground.

No dimmers here but a big electric transformer (for the area power distribution) is right behind our house in a post.
Line frequency transformers can certainly radiate EMF that will not be blocked by copper tape or paint. The best thing to do is put some distance between the offending transformer and the pickup/bass. Shielding against low frequency radiated noise can be done, but it gets expensive in a hurry.