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Dispite being told not to.....

Brick Top

Brick Top

Dec 7, 2008
378
6
Michigan
#1
Even though I have been advised overwhelmingly here at Tb to not try and upgrade my Behringer bx4210A....I want to have a bit of fun and do it anyways. Not too much will be invested I feel. Hopefully I can learn a few things along the way....besides wasting money.

I have ordered two Carvin PS10 drivers to replace the Bugera 10" aluminum ones this unit came with. One is rattling!

The PS10's are 8ohm. I now realize that the two drivers in the unit are 4ohm each...wired parallel.

The unit has three outputs on the back. Two 1/4" outs and one Speakon. The two 1/4" ones are used by the internal speakers. The one on the left goes to the woofers...and the one on the right goes to the tweeter. I assume the tweeter has a crossover where the wires connect to the tweeter. 150 watts from each output connector.

I was wondering if it would be any benefit to hook up the new drivers separately and disconnect the tweeter altogether? To clarify....run one 1/4" output to each of the new Carvin drivers...and not use the tweeter at all. This still leaves one output for an 8ohm cab in the future if I want.

Otherwise...if I should leave the tweeter connected....what will be the result of using two 8ohm drivers instead of the stock 4ohm drivers besides less power?

If it looks possible...I plan to replace as much internal wiring as possible with better quality wire if the internal wires look cheesy.

Cheers,
BT
 
#2
I would connect the new drivers in parallel to just one 1/4 inch jack.
I don't see any reason you would want to run them independently.
Just try it with and without the horn to see which way that you prefer.

The BX4210A has a minimum impedance of 4 ohms.
So if the stock drivers are wired in parallel they could be (a) 8 ohms each for a combined impedance of 4 ohms (or they could be (b) 16 ohms each for a combined impedance of 8 ohms.)
If the stock drivers are wired in series they could be (c) 4 ohms each for a combined impedance of 8 ohms (or they could be (d) 8 ohms each for a combined impedance of 16 ohms.)

The owner's manual is not clear on which one it is - it says 8 ohms but does not specifiy whether that is for one speaker or both.

Since the owner's manual shows both a BA210 and BA115 speaker cabinet connected at the same time, so going by that I would guess the internal speakers are (c) 4 ohms each in series for a net of 8 ohms.

I think you are going to like the sound of the Carvin speakers, plus they will most likely be louder than the stock speakers.

Before you discard the Bugera alumininum drivers, you might want to try to repair the rattling cones with speaker glue; this has worked for some people. If you get them working well, you could buy an empty 2x10 cab to put the Carvins in, and then put the Bugeras back in the combo. With the Bugeras in series at 8 and PS10's in series at 16, there is a good chance that the volume would be reasonably matched, as the Carvins are more efficient than the Bugeras.
 
#3
Almost invariably with combos, the amps minimum impedance is taken up by the combos drivers. If you go below that limit say goodbye to your amplifier.

If you ask a question on this forum you will most likely get a truthful answer. If you have been told NOT to do something DON'T!!!! You may not like the answer you receive, it might be inconvenient to your future plans however it IS most likely accurate!

Paul
 
#8
LesS said:
I would connect the new drivers in parallel to just one 1/4 inch jack.
I don't see any reason you would want to run them independently.
Just try it with and without the horn to see which way that you prefer.

The BX4210A has a minimum impedance of 4 ohms.
So if the stock drivers are wired in parallel they could be (a) 8 ohms each for a combined impedance of 4 ohms (or they could be (b) 16 ohms each for a combined impedance of 8 ohms.)
If the stock drivers are wired in series they could be (c) 4 ohms each for a combined impedance of 8 ohms (or they could be (d) 8 ohms each for a combined impedance of 16 ohms.)

The owner's manual is not clear on which one it is - it says 8 ohms but does not specifiy whether that is for one speaker or both.

Since the owner's manual shows both a BA210 and BA115 speaker cabinet connected at the same time, so going by that I would guess the internal speakers are (c) 4 ohms each in series for a net of 8 ohms.

I think you are going to like the sound of the Carvin speakers, plus they will most likely be louder than the stock speakers.

Before you discard the Bugera alumininum drivers, you might want to try to repair the rattling cones with speaker glue; this has worked for some people. If you get them working well, you could buy an empty 2x10 cab to put the Carvins in, and then put the Bugeras back in the combo. With the Bugeras in series at 8 and PS10's in series at 16, there is a good chance that the volume would be reasonably matched, as the Carvins are more efficient than the Bugeras.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the excellent post. Now that I read your response...I guess I explained it wrong. The Bugeras are wired in series I think. I'm a bit confused on which is which. My bad!

And yes....I am taking on this project knowing that if it was a waste of time...so be it. I will still have a nice set of Carvin drivers to use in another project. I thought they were pretty damn cheap.

Cheers,
BT
 
#12
Brick Top said:
The Bugeras are wired in series I think. I'm a bit confused on which is which. My bad!
Click to expand...

It's an important distinction, so it deserves care. Getting it wrong can damage an amplifier.

According to the manual, the BX4210A has a minimum impedance requirement of 4 ohms. All of its output jacks are simply wired in parallel, so there must be some crossover components on the tweeter assembly.

The original pair of 4-ohm woofers must be in series to achieve 8 ohms. (Parallel would be 2 ohms, which is below the amp's minimum).

If you install 8-ohm replacements, wire them in PARALLEL to get 4 ohms total.

New problem: By changing the woofers to a 4-ohm pair, you must examine the tweeter crossover. If it's a simple high-pass filter (a capacitor), you're fine. If, however, it is a fancier crossover, it may not behave as designed with a 4-ohm woofer setup. Listen to the tweeter in the original setup with recorded music (e.g. a CD). Now switch the woofers and listen. If the tweeter seems crossed over at a different frequency, its crossover must be redesigned.

As you have suggested, you may like the sound with the tweeter disconnected altogether.
 
#13
Rick Auricchio said:
It's an important distinction, so it deserves care. Getting it wrong can damage an amplifier.

According to the manual, the BX4210A has a minimum impedance requirement of 4 ohms. All of its output jacks are simply wired in parallel, so there must be some crossover components on the tweeter assembly.

The original pair of 4-ohm woofers must be in series to achieve 8 ohms. (Parallel would be 2 ohms, which is below the amp's minimum).

If you install 8-ohm replacements, wire them in PARALLEL to get 4 ohms total.
Click to expand...

Yes...I just read this earlier as I was researching different wiring techniques. Thanks.

Rick Auricchio said:
New problem: By changing the woofers to a 4-ohm pair, you must examine the tweeter crossover. If it's a simple high-pass filter (a capacitor), you're fine. If, however, it is a fancier crossover, it may not behave as designed with a 4-ohm woofer setup. Listen to the tweeter in the original setup with recorded music (e.g. a CD). Now switch the woofers and listen. If the tweeter seems crossed over at a different frequency, its crossover must be redesigned.

As you have suggested, you may like the sound with the tweeter disconnected altogether.
Click to expand...

I think it may be a piezo(sp?) tweeter...which I believe doesn't require a crossover....but evebn if it isn't....it's 8 ohm and wired indepentantly from the two woofers. it uses the left most output 1/4" jack.

My original thought was to use the wires that went to the tweeter....and hook them up to one of the new woofers...and hook the other new woofer up to the existing woofer wiring. I thought this would allow for be wattage since I'm going from two 4ohm's to two 8 ohm's.

Cheers,
BT
 
#14
Brick Top said:
Sheesh! What's the matter Jim.....too much caffine?
Click to expand...
No, I just hate to waste time trying to help people who really don't want help but just want to be told their bad idea is a good one. You asked for advice about if it would be a good idea, the answer was universally no, some peopel gave lengthy answers why it was a bad idea, and you did it anyway. So you really didn't want advice. You just wanted to be stroked. So yeah, that bothers me. Next time be honest and admit that you don't want advice and don't waste people's time.
 
#16
I don't know about you, but fun is spending money on something that works. I can tell you what fun definitely isn't...spending money on something that fails miserably and not being able to get your money back (try returning a used speaker sometime and see the laughs you get), and trying to help someone who pretends to want advice but just wants to be told their bad idea is good.
 
#17
I think that was a great idea - replacing the Bugera's with Carvins.
I owned a Behringer combo amp; the amplifier section was great - the speaker was the weak link in the chain.
Of course that was just my opinion and my advice - I certaintly won't get angry if the poster doesn't take it.

Brick Top,
Please let me know how it comes out. I think the Carvins will sound much better than the Bugeras.

-Les S
 
#18
LesS said:
I think that was a great idea - replacing the Bugera's with Carvins.
I owned a Behringer combo amp; the amplifier section was great - the speaker was the weak link in the chain.
Of course that was just my opinion and my advice - I certaintly won't get angry if the poster doesn't take it.
Click to expand...
Well I'm not going to kick my dog over it. I just wish people would be more honest when they ask for advice but really don't want it. Then I'll know better whether I want to take a few minutes out of my life to help out if I can.
 
#19
I'm not going to bash the OP over this, but Jimmy has a point. This site is really good at trying to keep people from making mistakes. When someone needs help, they help. If the OP doesn't want to follow what was apparently overwhelming (and probably pro) advice, he should have just done it without flaunting the futility of the previous advice. Just my opinion.

Mike
 

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