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DIY GFRP Sandwich Panel 1x15PR400

You may have answered already (in code) but I'm seeing you're building a cab, about the size of my GK MB 115 combo, where the fEARless cabs with the 3015LF have much larger volumes, even the 15sub is 50-80% larger in volume, but the new Bassic 15 is closer to your dimensions.

Is it excursion requirements vs volume?

Before building, I will make sized mockups to check how they fit into my vehicle. While it has been a Suburban, last weekend it was gone so I used the Ms.'s Civic, surprisingly slid all my gear into the trunk. Now I have a goal as I know there's room for 2 cabinets.
 
"Big" and "small" is relative to the speaker. In a sealed box, the air acts as a spring to keep the speaker under control when pumping out lowlows. The more volume (air), the softer the spring. In a ported box, there's the added the "mass" action of the air in the port, but similar spring action of the box size. (If you're keen to electronics, the electrical analogy of box volume is capacitance and for the port air is inductance, making it act like an LC circuit.)

In general, this Faital and the 3015 aren't made "soft" to go low, so a smaller box/stiffer spring I OK compared to the 3015LF subs. So conceptually, that's why there's the difference in size.

It all depends on the interaction of the parameters of the speaker and the box volume/port tuning, which of course is what WinISD is great for.

And then there's the practical side of your car's dimensions ;)

I used SketchUp towards the end to start to get a sense of size (cardboard mockups are great as well). Cubic dimensions aren't a very intuitive unit. :hmm:
 
Welp boys and girls, made some real progress today, and then effed a bit of it up. So 2 steps forward and all that.

Let's back up before we get to that and talk sequencing. One reason this stuff is trickier than ply is there are a lot more ways one could build a box. Zac and Rob epoxied all but one plain foam pieces together and then glassed. Then they plopped the final piece in and sealed it. The other extreme is making all the panels separately or laying up one big sheet to cut up. This method goes a lot more like ply - basically how Jmac did it with his prefab composite panels. Petebass went with a hybrid approach of glassing the inside faces of the side panels and both faces of the front and back panels (as in the second method). Then he epoxied it together and finally wrapped the final glassing around the whole mess (as in the first method). I liked his thinking and it seems like a good middle ground in ease of construction and strength. So I'm doing it that way.

So that means there are 8 sides to glass before this thing starts to look like a box. Last week I got through 5 and today my plan was to get through the last 3 (inside left, outside baffle and outside back) so I could make a box tomorrow. Spoiler: didn't happen.

Today started out great. I waited for the cool morning fog to lift then got to work cutting glass. I'm using a 4'x2' sheet of melamine as a cutting board. I've found it's much easier to make a clean cut using a cutter and straight edge compared to scissors.

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So clean.

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Once I got 2 pieces for each layup, I moved on to preping my "molds." I've been testing out using melamine sheets as a mold surface and a poor man's vacuum bag. (Epoxy doesn't stick to the stuff.) Plus I've designated one side as the cutting board shown above, so double duty. I'm not sold on it just yet, but I like the idea of it maybe consolidating everything. The surface, however, unless I used way more epoxy than is needed doesn't come out all that great. Today, I stuck with the plan though (mostly...) and used them. Even though epoxy isn't supposed to stick to it, I don't want to risk it, so I waxed the surfaces before moving on:
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Instructions: Wax on. Wax off.

I've also experimented with using mylar plastic for the same purpose, but instead of adding weight, you can either use a hard roller (like used with tolex) over the sheet to work the epoxy down, and then you're left with a nice shiny surface after it cures. Nice in theory, but I wasn't digging it as much as I thought I would. I think for the outside layups, I'm not going to mess with mylar or melamine. The print through of the fabric weave will get covered and there are less surprises the next day without a surface mold.

With all that prep work out of the way, I can get down to the real work, the fiberglass layup! Here's everything assembled at ground zero.

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The process is part relaxing part cathartic and part hectic when you're in a race against the epoxy, but having everything ready ahead of time moves that balance to the relaxing side, hopefully.

The other trick I use to keep my mind clear, is this handy little spreadsheet to tell me how much epoxy to weigh out based on the panel size, glass weight, number of layers, epoxy ratio and the density info from the MSDS:
Epoxyweight.gif

I can updated it on the fly if I think it's looking a little dry/wet. Man, I love spreadsheets.

The layup itself is just something you have to get a feel for. Here's what I do: after mixing the epoxy for a minute or two, I pour 95% of it on the panel. Then I use that yellow squeegee to evenly coat the surface. Carefully, so I don't distort the weave too much, lift and drape the glass down. I typically use some fancy bubble-busting roller to consolidate everything at this point, but they don't last forever and unfortunately, and mine are shot ATM (see handles sticking out of that bag above). No worries, I just carefully used the squeegee instead and a chip brush. It worked out just fine, maybe better because I had to be more careful. That last 5% of epoxy is used where it's needed after you've worked over the panel once. Now give it a final passing. Here's what it might look like:
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Here's where it got interesting. With all the pieces laid up, I went to arrange my curing setup. The original plan was to use my two sheets of melamine on two of the day's panels and then the last of the mylar on the front of the baffle. I layer all these together to add weight to the previous. Here's the beginnings of it:
DSC00926.gif


But somewhere in the middle I got clever and thought I could use one sheet of mylar for two panels (front and back outside faces). It worked. Kinda. Until I noticed the panels started to slide past each other. At this point I tried to gently persuade them to line back up. It worked once. Then they just kept slipping. So I lost a third of the day's work when I had to separate them. Mega sad face.

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I decided against giving it a second go after that, as I was just out of patience for the day and it was getting late. Anyway, moral of the story is, stick to the plan and don't try to use one sheet of mylar for two surfaces at the same time.

Tomorrow I'll try that panel again and hopefully trim up the rest of the pieces in preparation for assembly :cool:
 
Nice work so far! Kudos on a well documented build thread as well.
Like You, I like having a plan of attack before "jumping in" on most projects. Makes the job go a lot easier, with less surprises. Hey don't feel bad about the little hickup on the one panel, IME-it is just one of those kind of things that happens. I'd look at it like this, How would You have known that it wouldn't work, if You never tried it?
 
Thanks man! Yeah my thought as well. It's like when on gig night, in the middle of the song, you decide on a new lick to try. It's gonna be awesome. Then you lay an egg... It happens and shouldn't discourage you next time, but hopefully you learn.

I redid the baffle front today. I couldn't get all the epoxy off yesterday, so I started by sanding the epoxy a bit with 80 grit so the new epoxy bonds well. This time I left it simply cure as is, without a surface mold. I'll do cut outs after, fyi.

I'll wait to do all the trimming. Not positive yet how I'll do it. With everything fully cured I think my two options are jigsaw with a tile blade or dremel with a cutting bit. When I cut down my test panels with a regular wood jigsaw blade, the fiberglass ate up the teeth really fast - this stuff is really tough! The skins also delaminated at the edges a bit two, so I'm apprehensive to try the jigsaw again, but I also don't own a dremel. Maybe a good excuse for one...

Anyway, time for a post-build burrito!
 

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I think Dremel cutting tool works pretty well, but especially if you're using it to cut overhanging bits of fiberglass (like where it wasn't fully wetted out), the fibers may grab on to the tool. A sharp set of scissors is a good friend to have around, cuz strands of fiberglass will remain even after you've made a clean cut on the substrate. For sure wear a mask, cuz glass sawdust is no fun.

In terms of laying up fiberglass, the exact amount of resin to glass isn't so critical -- if you put a bit more resin than you need, it's wasteful, obviously, and will make your weight go up a little bit, but this isn't like making an airplane where an extra ounce or two is critical.

Question: why using a mold surface for structural layups? My thinking was that application is best for if you have a nice gel coat and fancy carbon fiber or kevlar that you're gonna keep polished and unpainted. Is it for more than cosmetic? Or maybe my question is, if it's gonna end up with Duratex painted on it, would I still want to do it?
 
I think Dremel cutting tool works pretty well, but especially if you're using it to cut overhanging bits of fiberglass (like where it wasn't fully wetted out), the fibers may grab on to the tool. A sharp set of scissors is a good friend to have around, cuz strands of fiberglass will remain even after you've made a clean cut on the substrate. For sure wear a mask, cuz glass sawdust is no fun.

Yeah, I think the ideal is to cut the excess when the epoxy's halfway cured or so. That way, it's not a mess but also not a rock yet. But I opt for the wait method just for easier planning.

In terms of laying up fiberglass, the exact amount of resin to glass isn't so critical -- if you put a bit more resin than you need, it's wasteful, obviously, and will make your weight go up a little bit, but this isn't like making an airplane where an extra ounce or two is critical.

Every once counts! Ha, well you're right. And more epoxy is stiffer than air. I know my approach is overkill.

Question: why using a mold surface for structural layups? My thinking was that application is best for if you have a nice gel coat and fancy carbon fiber or kevlar that you're gonna keep polished and unpainted. Is it for more than cosmetic? Or maybe my question is, if it's gonna end up with Duratex painted on it, would I still want to do it?

Another great point. It was just a way to try to get everything consolidated with an added benefit of having a smooth surface. In reality, I don't use enough epoxy for a totally smooth surface. They end up with areas of smoothness and areas as if no mold was used. Ideally, I'd do one or two surface coats after the epoxy begins to set so there's not the fabric print through and a bit of extra protection for the FG. Plus that way when you go back to sand (because there's gonna be some imperfection), you're not sanding glass. I may end up taking the extra time to do that for the final wraparound. But I'm pretty sure if I didn't do that it'd be fine (sanding would still concern me). I'm planning to use tolex, so there's sensitivity to major flaws, but print through texture should be fine.
 
Thinking a bit more - I'm betting if you do a good job on getting a smooth surface, you'll be tempted to paint it up autobody style.
I vote Corvette red! :cool:

A lesson from my exp - next time I do it I'll glass both sides before gluing the box together. The only good reason to make the object first before glassing is if it's oddball shapes, but speaker boxes are pretty boring rectangular solids (altho one of the benefits of working with fiberglass is the relative ease of fabricating fancy shapes, so maybe...)
 
There are two things keeping me from doing the panel construction method, and they both involve how the corners look/are done. Thinking out loud here...

1) Assuming I want round overs at the corner (a requirement if I do any glassing over it, but if it's just epoxy/micro/etc. I guess it's optional - I like the look and it seems more stable, so let's say round overs stay), they should be done before glassing. Can't think of a good way to do the roundover after glassing because of the hardness difference between foam and glass. Not sure if this could be part of the solution, but sabre79 had a really clever way to deal with this on a ply-foam sandwich build:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/foam-sandwich-15-6-build-685314/
I thought that was genius and made this whole thing possible. Maybe if I work epoxy mix into the ends of the panels before...

2) Inevitably the pieces will have some variation side to side, so I wouldn't bet on being able to do the roundover before and everything to line up perfectly when putting it together. If I was able to cut this stuff on a table saw or use a nice circular saw guide, it might work. Make the panels a bit bigger, then cut to size, is I think how I would do it in that case to ensure straight, square sides. (Despite my best efforts, my cutter blade swung out of square a bit on my foam cuts on a few sides, btw. :()

I guess if I used some aluminum extrusion, it would work out, but that seems like a sloppy method, IMO, plus I'm not a big fan of the look.

Doing it the Petebass Way, I can sand down the round once it's all together, so it's guaranteed to match up. Though, I expect still needing a little micro filler.

Reminds me of a job I had building parade floats once (yeah...). We had all these really odd shapes to cover in ply and being the engineer I am, started by trying to measure and calc how to cut them. The shop owner taught me a valuable lesson that day:
Some times it's best to measure once and cut twice.
Much faster and there was no way I was going to figure it out on the fly. A box is a bit easier, but point is, you get it "perfect" after it's together, not before.

Hmm... I think I still could do the panel method if I could answer those questions. I have several yards of 3 or 4" FG tape that could help reinforce that outside corner still. I think I trust the inside corner to be strong enough with the micro/silica fillet based on my testing so far and time on boat building threads.

Any other ideas anyone? I'm planning on offsetting the baffle a full inch for a grille cloth frame + a bit of a reveal... still a butt joint I guess, so shouldn't cause more trouble.

Calling Jmac - Looking back, I saw you used some wood trim on the front and back to cover the honeycomb edges. That still leaves exposed edges on the sides, though, right? How'd you deal with that? The finished cab pics don't show any sign of what you did :help:

I'll post some sketches I've done trying to work this over, that might add to the discussion...

Thanks for the feedback so far mulchor!
 
To address the "ugly corners" that is common with using prefab honeycomb panels like I used. I did a combination of a couple of things. I can find a pic of only one of the steps however.

I created a "jointed edge" by scoring the skin with a sawcut on one side of the panel and routing out a "cove" at the panels edge to the overall thickness of the mating panel, but leaving the skin intact on the side that would be facing out.
Nidacorecab4.jpg


When glueing it up, I used as much of the epoxy adhesive as I could to fill the open cells in the honeycomb to minimize the amount of air voids that would be there when I rounded it over with the router and create a very strong joint. On the interior of the cab I used the same epoxy adhesive to create a "Fillet" on all of the bonded corners, for a bit of added bonding surface.
After routing the edges, I used a fiber reinforced body filler to fill any air voids or weak spots in the jointed edge. For final finishing, I used a premium lightweight auto-body filler to get all of My joints really smooth.

Hope all that is somewhat helpfull. :D
 
Ahh! OK I see now. That's how I've done corners working with foamcore for models, etc. before. How you then backfilled with epoxy to give something to actually shape solves the other problem... Hmm...

Given my panels are cut to size but there is glass overlap, this could work still, but I won't have the full thickness of the mating panel in FB overhang. I guess if I'm rounding it off, I don't need it...

I'm gonna think about it for the next day or two before I was planning to do the next step anyways.

Thanks!

Just ordered the hardware. Soon everything will be here except tolex and grill cloth (this is the hardest decision I've ever made in my life :D).
 
Just for thought....
A first concept idea on My build, was to use a thin wood or high density foam "firring strip" on the edges of the panels that were going to be exposed or rounded over. The "firring strips" could potentially work for what You're wanting to do. It would require routing the edges of the panels to whatever size to accept the strip. I'd think that the ideal size of the strip would be a smidge wider than the size of the roundover (3/8"?) that You're gonna use. You would still have a "sound" joint, and have a good workable edge for the roundover.
Again just an "armchair mechanic" idea....
 
Hey everyone! Well, this weekend is (with luck!) going to be the big progress weekend. We're moving next weekend, so anything I don't get done this weekend, won't happen for a bit :/ I spent a bit of time tonight testing a few things in preparation for tomorrow and this is where I got:

First off, the issue of how it's going together - I'm sticking with the original plan. Maybe in a future build I'll try the other. I don't think it makes that much of a difference in the end.

As for trimming the FG overage, I broke down and bought a Dremel tonight. ;) It should also work well for all the other hole cutting tasks, too. Here's my test edge.

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I'll probably need to go back with a little sanding disk...

I used the tape guide trick.

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Btw, here's how that mylar'd surface turned out:

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It's 90% awesome but the layup wasn't rich enough to fill the whole surface. That's fine.

The other thing that happened was I got my hardware today (all from Mojotone.com), and I'm pretty happy with it :hyper: One of the biggest question marks I've had is about the round over. I've read that corners tend to have the wrong internal radius spec'd, so I couldn't really test anything until now. That was correct - the 1/2" R is closer to 3/4" which I'm actually happy about.

I could do the round over by hand, but then I got to thinking... I picked up a scrap piece of 3/4" corner trim, glued sandpaper to the inside and viola!

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After a layer of fiberglass and tolex, that radius is gonna grow, but I think it's still gonna work. :D
 
Following along here. Learning mostly, I have no experience with the fiberglass sandwich stuff. I gotta say, your attention to detail and figuring/plotting stuff out beforehand is superb. Nice trick on the roundover too.
 
After most of the morning working, I've got everything all trimmed up. Tons of dust (pics to follow) and I'm glad I "splurged" on a nice respirator last night.

But I got to thinking while I was out grinding away about a better way to make the panels. I think it might be easier if the foam never gets cut alone. My idea would be to mark out your panels on the foam (both sides where required) and then glass in that area. Once it's all cured, you can cut out the panels from there. You're not wasting as much glass as if you laid up the whole sheet, but get all the efficiency of a panel layup.

It'd still require a good way to cut the panels without delaminating the skins... Hmm... eventually I'll test out those tile jigsaw blades -- those might work for this. Or maybe a tile blade on a circular saw. This would avoid all the trimming and grinding I had to do this morning, plus the hour or so I spent cutting out the foam with a cutter. For production work (or if you don't want to spend months building...), this would be way I think. Even if it does delaminate, it's only at the last 1"ish, so it's not a terrible loss of strength and stiffness.

If/when there's a next time...
 
As promised!

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Like I said, this was a pain. I first had to trim the virgin FG with scissors, then use the Dremel cutting bit and finish with the Dremel sanding drum. At least it worked:

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Tip: Wear full protection gear here. Goggles, respirator, work gloves, long sleeve shirt, etc. etc. Some glass got into my sleeves before I thought to tuck them into the gloves. My forearms are less than happy about this.

With that ready, I was able to start making this a box! I was a little freaked out because I hadn't "experimented" with this step much. So, I jumped right in...

Bottom-to-back:
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The "glue" used is a mixture of epoxy and cab-o-sil (a suuuper fine silica powder). The silica thickens the epoxy and gives the mix some cohesion. It's a thixotropic admixture -- there's your word of the day ;) All that means is it makes a flowy liquid act more like toothpaste. It's cool stuff, but bad news to breathe it in. Out comes the respirator.

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Sorry, I don't have any pics mixing it or applying it. Like I said, I was sweating bullets a bit on this. You keep adding it until you have a paste like consistency (or peanut butter stored on the shelf). Once you have it mixed up, I like to transfer it out of the mixing cup to a paper plate to give more working time. Before I started using this trick, I was working with about 100g of epoxy/silica in the mixing cup and noticed it was starting to get hot (accelerating the cure). Soon after I found this clump of cured epoxy in the pot:

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Anyway, then apply a 1/16" - 1/8" layer of it to both surfaces making sure everything is wetted, especially the rough edge. This way when you mate them up, all the voids get filled. One quirk with this is it's not like wood glue where clamping pressure = strong bond. Actually clamping too hard just squeezes out the epoxy. So I didn't use clamps at all. I've read that some people will use a strip of FG along the bond to hold epoxy in. Makes sense, but I didn't go through that trouble.

Top-back-bottom:
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I used a roofers square on the outside edges to make sure things were, well square.

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There are some spots where there wasn't enough epoxy. In the next round, I'll use plain epoxy and micro to fill the void. Even still, I trust that if there's a good fillet on the inside and a good FG wrap on the outside, it'll be fine.

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Forth side - that's half way there!

Bottom-back-top-left:
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At this point, I starting thinking through the next steps and realized I couldn't hold off doing the baffle cut outs any longer. At one point I thought long and hard about where to put everything. Well, so much for that ;) I laid everything out and decided to put everything in an even, symmetrical pattern. Oh yeah, "everything" also includes two 3" Precision Ports.

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Somebody could call me out for putting the speaker equidistant to THREE sides. Yeah, I've read that's bad. We'll see how bad it really is. :spit: I mainly just wanted to put it as high as possible. As for the ports, I made sure to keep one diameter clearance (3"). Oh and I chose to front port. From what I've read, it doesn't make much difference where you locate them, unless they're shooting at a boundary within 1/4 of a wavelength. I don't want to think about that when I have to set up on a tiny stage, so I was anti-rear porting from the get go. Finally, there's enough clearance for a grill frame around the edges.

Lowe's didn't have that handy Dremel circle cutter attachement, so I went old school with the "pen and string" trick. Saved me $20! (Oh and I just looked it up - it only does up to 13" diameter, so it wouldn't have worked anyway. Sweet.)

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Thems round!

Next surprise for the day: melted foam! Not sure if this was partially caused by a dulling bit, but I think it'd happen even with a new bit. It ended up being a mess and I think the outside 1/8" or so just off-gassed. (Again, go-go inspector respirator). :eek: Glad I'm through with that step. Gotta figure out a better method for cutting out the jack plate...

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Next step is to slide the baffle in. It didn't quite fit by a 1/16" or so. I thought about trying to shove it in and then had visions of terrible things. So I marked a line with a Sharpie at the end and got the Dremel disk sander back out and ground until the line was gone. Because the inside corners were filleted already, I had to grind down the corners, as well. Poy-fect!

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So, I repeated my steps from above to epoxy the baffle and right side on.

And finally, we have a box! :hyper::hyper:

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Btw, (a very tiny) part of why I picked the 15" was because it's really easy to get inside through a 14" diameter hole. If this cab was a 10"x or 8"x it'd be a total b*otch.

Dang, how many weeks did I take to get to this point? :p OK, well tomorrow, hopefully I can finish glassing the outside. I'm running low on epoxy because I didn't plan on using so much for the panel glueing. As with the previous Sunday, I'll be SOL if I run out. :rollno:
 
One thing I've never really "got".....how you guys do seams. It seems <----:) the strongest would be to do the inside and outside fiberglass layers as one contiguous layer, (1 in and 1 out) but that has to be complicated, and, on the inside, a total PITA if not just impractical/impossible.
 

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