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Do Bass Features Really Matter Today?

#21
While I see your point to an extent, I have to discuss this a bit. For recording certain things I see the use modeling...especially for demo type stuff. The thing is that to my ears, and I have played a lot of modeling gadgets, they only approximate a sound. There is a reason they are called modeling.

I think that tone starts with your hands, then your bass, and then your amp. Anything you put into this at any point can have an effect- positively or negatively. Then you record it, and you through a whole other chain of stuff into it, which will change your tone.

The above being said, price does not make a great bass. This is a very subjective thing though. For instance, I was at a local music store playing the inventory. I picked up an American Jazz and one of the Vintage Squire Jazz basses, and for me there was not enough difference to warrant the difference in price. They felt about the same, played pretty close, and both sounded like jazz basses. Then, I picked up a USA Peavey Cirrus 5, and it blew me away. Played great, looked great, sounded awesome...it gave me substantial GAS. For my playing, sound, and style the $2K Peavey was better than any Fender I have ever played- and a former teacher of mine has a 57 Precision and a pre CBS Jazz. I do not say this to start an argument, but to illustrate a point. I like what I like...not because of the name on it or the price, but because it fits me well esthetically, ergonomically, and tonally. I hope you would do the same as long as it is within your budget. So, if you like modeling amps go for it, but I will stick with my Trace Elliot, and hopefully a nice tube pre when the budget allows.

Mark
 
#22
Maybe modeling will, maybe it won't. But I buy good quality used gear and don't mess with modeling or foot pedels or external DI's. I can tune and set my rig up in 10 minutes, don't have to worry about a bunch of power cords and patch cords, batteries. Just play. I love the simplicity of it.
 
#23
Kevmove said:
Great start to the discussion. I want to remind everyone one that we a posting to a forum that has thousands of posts related to taking a stock bass and modifying it to make it sound better. So whether your mods come by virtue of replacement parts or modeling the signal, we are living in a world where stock is not good enough. Or most people who post here are gear heads.

In my original post, I said choose a bass of the lowest common denominator. Say a MIM Fender J Bass. Which becomes a better investment: spending $300 on upgrades or $300 on effects. And before you reply, answer this question: how many instruments tracks make it to the final mix unprocessed?
Click to expand...

In my case, and my recording experience is limited, about half of my tracks went with no effects/processing. Granted, they were recorded at 24 bit, and compressed to 16 bit. Other than that, the rest have had a bit of compression, and one or two tracks had some chorus.

As to the rest of your post. In the case of the Jazz, what are you trying to accomplish with the upgrades? What style of music, and what kind of tone are you shooting for? I have no problem with effects, but a lot of times they just get in the way. Generally, that Jazz probably has a decent, basic tone as most jazz do. Stock, it is not going to do what some mid-high end active basses will do. If you are looking for a hifi modern tone, then the $300 is better spend on better pickup and a pre versus effects.

mark
 
#25
So am I to believe that a MIM J Bass is a "crap" instrument? This seems to be your point since you repeated yourself in regards to tone.

Is it the general consensus that most recorded music we hear today features unprocessed instruments? When was the last time you heard a purely analog recording?

Is it all the consensus that despite the huge sales volume of Toneports, Pods, Guitar RIgs and so on, that most bassists do not use these devices to play live or record?

And finally, what exactly is the point to buying multiple bass guitars in the same form ( 2 or 3 five strings or 2 or 3 four strings) other than for collector purposes?

Isn't it all the endless pursuit of a particular sound, which cannot be produced by technique alone?

In fact, could any of us listen to a recording and know what particular brand of instrument was played, as well as what mods, if any, were made to the bass? Can we even tell whether an actual bass was used (Seinfeld theme)?
 
#26
lomo and fullrangebass, you have hit the heart of the matter, that todays instruments are choices or ergonomics and playability. No amount of instrument mods or effects can compensate for poor technique. So the feature that should be most prominent in instrument selection should be "does this bass inspire and enable me to spend hours improving my technique without fear of injury due to poor ergonomics?" Yes, you have to like how it sounds, but todays technology makes it possible to provide great flexibility in this department, that is able to evolve with you.

Everyone has their preferences, but the effort that goes into purchasing a stock instrument, then upgrading the components is not nearly as cost effective as buying a quality instrument that is affordable, leaving it stock, then using a modeling unit to tailor your sound to suit your taste. When you no longer like the sound, it is a simple matter of tweaking your settings.

As an aside, our electric guitar brethren are not as nearly as opposed to effects and modeling as this group. It is expected that a guitarist will use effects. Why are bass players so effects adverse?
 
#27
Kev, call me crazy but it sure sounds like you are already convinced that your view, i.e.; money spent on bass is wasted money, better to just process downstream is the right way, and you are actually trying to convince the rest of us to agree. Say it ain't so?
And yes, most instruments are processed but usually NOT to such a degree as to render them unrecognizable. I can listen to lots and lots of recordings and identify J's from P's from Ray's. Even Wicks, Modulus, etc. Or how about Tele's from Strat's? Or Les Pauls? Easy.
I'm NOT saying I'm against effects. Lots of us love 'em. I'm saying they cannot be used to fix BAD tone.
Obviously, technique is paramount. Everyone has a story about how such-and-such picked up a POS strat and made it sound incredible. Starts with the hands, of course.
 
#28
bassteban said:
but realizing that few notice the bass except sometimes in its complete absence doesn't bother me in the least. I work on my tone because I'll play better if I like the sound I'm producing,
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.


I'll assume we all want to sound good, but mostly our tone quest is for ourselves, our bandmates and other musicians, those in the know.

Technology & effects smooth out some rough edges (for me) or add sabor if that's the goal, but there are many factors that create your 'tone', not the least of which is your own attitude, touch, and take on playing in general. I know the gear guys like these kinds of discussions (me too, they're fun), but all of us are individuals and what works for someone, may not for others. There are very few of us (any?) who have identical rigs. I don't use any processing when playing live, but only 'cause it's too much work for me. My quest for ultimate tone starts with finding the right bass for me, and I'm still looking. It's a tool, right?

OK, break is over, guess I'd better get back to work. :D
 
#29
Just in case I offended anyone w/the term 'crap', I was not referring to anyone's bass in particular, or even any specific brand/model. Frankly, I'm very impressed w/the quality of the least expensive instruments these days.

Edit: I think that if bass players are(for the most part)averse to effects it's because more or less straight bass works better than effected most of the time. I hope that's my last sweeping generalization today, or at least in this thread. :D
 
#30
I think you're confusing the issue a bit. Surely you mean - "why spend the money on an expensive amp/preamp when Guitar Rig/Pandora will do it for me". This I can understand to an extent. There's some great settings for bass on Guitar Rig, and for recording at home it can be a god send.

However, plug a P.O.S. bass with dead spots, poor intonation, and thin tone into anything, be it a big SVT rig or a good software amp simulator and it will still sound like rubbish.

I work in a fairly major recording studio in London, and I'm often loaning my MIA Deluxe Jazz to experienced recording engineers because a hot young band have come in with a lot of vibe but bad instruments, and their tone isn't cutting it. It makes a big difference.

I'm not saying everyone should own expensive basses - some cheap ones can sound great, but to completely disregard instrument quality and hoping to 'fix it in the mix' will just not work
 
#31
For the record, I own 3 basses and plotting on a 4th. I love the bass guitar. I also have a few pieces of home studio equipment ranging from a standalone hard disk recorder to a software DAW based on Cubase 4 and Sequel 2. I love the Motown Sound and if possible, I would own all the gear that my bass heroes (James Jamerson and Chuck Rainey) used when recording their signature basslines (my personal favorites are the bass line from "I was made to love her" and the bassline from "Where is the Love?").

It is not likely that I will ever get to play, let alone own all the gear that was and is responsible for all the awesome sounds from days gone by. However, companies like Line 6 and Native Instruments are working very hard to bring these sonic experiences to the the average player. In fact Line 6/Sonoma Wireworks have developed a pretty amazing collaborative tool for music creation over the internet. All of it is based on amp/effects modeling, and they have reached a level of emulation that most people cannot detect the difference.

As I use these tools and work on my technique and artistry, it dawned on me that we have reached a point where it is no longer necessary to invest in expensive equipment to produce an amazing sound. If you are in a position to spend a lot of money on the instrument that is right for you, go for it. I dream of the day when I can spend $2000 on a top of the line guitar. In the mean time, I don't have to give up on creating a pro sound with spending a ton on upgrades either, because there are option available today that allow me to make some pretty amazing sounds for the cost of a decent bass and a effects units.

Which leads back to my original premise. If I didn't vigorously defend my position. why would I bother to post in the first place? In fact, if you all agreed with me, this would be a pretty boring site. I expected disagreement. How else would I grow?
 
#32
I'm happiest with my P-Bass into a reasonable tube amp. I am convinced I can hear every step further away from that I get. My fretless with Bartolini's sounds great with the pre DISengaged and loses its magic when it's engaged. OK, so I like passive (I haven't given up on active but I'm not terribly inclined to invest much into it).

My AMP BH-420 sounds very good, but the tubes have got something about them. When digital gets in there you start losing me really quickly.

The effects give you lots of options for tone, but somehow I think they lose the one tone that I really want - a nice passive pickup into a nice amp. It's not about boutique high-brow audiophile stuff, either - in fact a lot of that stuff moves me further away from my desired tone.

I actually don't spend that much time thinking about tone. I have a pretty simple recipe and it works for me. I'd rather devote my energies to playing better. If you're happy with modeling go for it. I like things a lot simpler.

KO
 
#35
Kraigo, great point. The 4th bass that I am gas for is a simple P-Bass. I have a 5 string active, a 4 string J bass, and a Ibanez budget bass, but I want a P Bass really bad. Why? Because nothing else sounds like it.

However, there is a "motown" setting on my Pandora that doesn't a decent enough job of sounding like motown to get me through most days. But let me walk into my local Guitar Center and I am soon cost justifying why I can or should buy another bass.

If this was another thread in another forum, we would be debating tube amps vs solid state or p-bass vs j`bass. It all keeps our minds active while we get through the boring parts of the day.
 
#36
I have a small home studio as well. I can absolutely see the point of modeling in it. At the same time I've got some very cool little tube bass rigs and some nice mics and a nice tube mic pre. Nothing all that expensive. I don't worry about copping "that tone". I worry about a good solid tone and getting the best performance I can get.

I will absolutely grant you that it's pretty incredible what you can get with plug ins. I've played with them and used them in projects. Often I leave it plain. My tube mic preamp sounds pretty good. It provides a good starting point for what ever follows it.

My last response was about live playing. In that case, the simpler my signal chain, the happier I am.

KO
 
#38
Kevmove said:
After upgrading the pickups on my J Bass, plugged it into my Pandora PX4D and began testing the bass on different settings. It then dawned on me that the upgrade I just made may have been pointless, due to the fact that the Pandora is capable of modeling a myriad of different setups and amp combos. This led me to look at my desktop and realize that I have a Toneport UX2 and a Guitar Rig Sessions IO that also model all of the preamps, amps, cabinets and effects that are available. This set me to thinking: why did I upgrade my bass at all? I always plug into my I plug into my computer or into my PX4D when I am away from my computer, all for the purpose for shaping the sound.

Is the bass instrument I use even relevant anymore? Is it possible to pick the bass that meets the minimum standards and shape the sound through electronics? I tested my theory by playing my Fender J Bass, Yamaha RBX 765a, and Ibanez GSR100 through the same setup and heard virtually no difference, due to the fact that the bass was merely an input device to the modeling hardware/software.

This was startling to me. Why spend thousands of dollars on a bass when I could take a $200 bass and run it through an amp modeler and get the same sound, a fraction of the cost? In fact, The Line 6 Variax is nothing but an amp modeler with strings! Want a Motown Sound? dial it in! Want a Brit Sound? Dial it in!

So in light of this, does the features of the bass really matter anymore?
Click to expand...

You could take this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, not only is the instrument secondary to the software, but so is the player. Why bother with people performances when Garageband has it all wrapped up? My internal quantization is not nearly as accurate as Garageband. There's no question, software can do it all........ Don't upgrade your instruments, sell them all, before everyone else catches on and they become worthless, and spend your money on a really good computer.

JBY
 
#39
Technique turns a sows ear into a silk purse. Musical intention creates the tune/song.

A good bass is a good bass regardless of price. I too love and play a G&L frequently. It is more of an expressive instrument than a $5000 MTD I played recently. However my Roscoe LG3005 for me blows them away. The Roscoe can be played in any genre of music and respond and sound appropriate. The G&L is more limited.

I was in the studio doing some tracks. I was practicing between takes and had a '51 RI Precision on my lap. It still had the cheap trebly original pickup that the early RIs had. A tune came on the monitors so I flipped it up and played all the way through. A pro violinist walked in heard the complete track and asked me was I playing upright on it. Yet if you were just to tinker around on this bass you would never hear any upright characteristics.

So forget modeling. Get a good bass and someone who can play it for your style of music. Real musicians are all we have if the electricity goes out.
 
#40
Kevmove said:
Is the bass instrument I use even relevant anymore? Is it possible to pick the bass that meets the minimum standards and shape the sound through electronics?

So in light of this, does the features of the bass really matter anymore?
Click to expand...

I see what you're saying, but define, "minimum standards" for me. If you like what you're hearing, great, but ANY Line 6 device, and most cheap effect modellers, suck tone to my ears. Any midrange or high end character gets lost immediately, and that means that the effect device is unacceptable.

For that matter, to my ears, the converters in a lot of cheaper recording interfaces are unacceptable for recording...may as well shove an old boombox in the room with a cassette tape and hit record.
Mind you, plenty of cheap basses, my OLP included, sound good with a decent setup, or for certain styles of music. I'm not against cheap basses at all; often the only difference between a cheap bass and an expensive one IME is a little elbow grease on my part regarding setup, electronics, etc. It's just that modelling devices don't sound good in 99% of cases I've heard them...they're massive tonesucks. I'd honestly rather hear an SR400 through a good DI than a Fodera through a Line 6. Modelling technology is that bad, to my ears.

So, again, define "minimum standards." If you like it, great. But it ain't the same thing, and everyone's ear is different. I'd speculate that you feel that way because you haven't heard your setup through good monitors or a larger FOH setup, although I could be wrong.

For my money, I'd take the $300 and spend it on the bass's setup, strings, pickup, etc. Can't go wrong with a good source signal, regardless of what it goes into.
 

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