Do you inspire or deter?

[Eilif]

Interesting posts all. I agree that the kind of put downs mentioned here are way to common in the music world.

I think the folks that mentioned blunt music teachers are talking about a different phenomenon. A teacher is speaking from a place of authority, and it is their professional responsibility to be truthfull and honest with their students. They can, and often should, be blunt. When I was younger, I was a slacker (still am kind-of) my teachers saw it and called me out on it. As they should.

That's not at all the same as some douche in a music store, or a show, ripping up some poor beginner to make themselves feel better.

I go out of my way to help, and encourage new bassists, even if it's just a simple, "sounds good" , "keep at it", or "nice bass you have there".

 

[Spinal Tapper]

I got kicked out of a metal band when I was 15. I was in the band with my "friends" for a few months - played a few crappy shows. The drummer was amazing (for his age), and the guitards were pretty awesome too. I had just started playing a year prior to joining, so you can imagine how bad I was. Anyways, they replaced me with a better bass player.

It really brought me down - I didn't pick up the instrument for about 5 years after that. I didn't even consider myself a bass player or even a musician at this point. Luckily, in college I found new people to jam with. Now I play every day and consider myself pretty darn good.

Sometimes it's the kick in rear we all need to knock us down - the hard part is getting back up and on the horse.

Nice post!

 

[()smoke()]

in my experience, the very best guitarists and bassists i've ever heard are also some of the most helpful, if not the most helpful and humble guitarists and bassists i've met...i've found that often the competitive or downright mean-spirited players may be good, but not nearly the cream of the crop...i've also noticed that these same types often play the 'showoff' game in stores, at parties, or whenever the chance presents itself

as an example, i've talked with guitarists playing in bands after gigs who are very good yet don't miss the opportunity to slam others or belittle other players on the bill, yet i had an instructor who is small of stature and meek of heart who could mop the floor with just about anyone, and he was always positive in his critique of others' playing...my current bass instructor is very much the same way

there are guys on this board who have the same helpful attitude, and that in itself is inspiring--Jauqo III X is a great example, imo

as a spin on the question, i try to always find inspiration rather than deterrence from the music played by players who are better than me--and let me tell you, there are a LOT of players better than me! if i hear a lick or line that makes my head spin and my heart skip, i want to learn it, not give up

 

[tZer]

Eilif - Yes, true, there is a difference between a teacher who tells it like it is and a random person with a random opinion. But on the topic of "do you inspire or deter" the idea that a person's opinion and presentation can either make another person feel better or worse about their own abilities includes both the 'douche bag' and the gruff teacher. The douche bag could also very well be a teacher who is speaking from a position of authority. Hell, some may even toss Jeff Berlin into that category! LOL

OK - the Jeff Berlin comment was uncalled for - but the idea holds... He's clearly made some comments (many taken out of context) that appear to be really 'douchey' - but if one takes the time to actually get through their feelings about how he said it and focuses on the substance, they usually find very valuable information at it's core.

As for the random, drive-by douching that can occur in chain-style instrument shops one must consider the environment and realize that they don't know anything about anyone there. They could be world-class experts (doubtful, but hey...) they could also be world-class douches (less doubtful, but you still don't know) Therefore it's up to the recipient of the commentary to deal with it accordingly and not allow some stranger's spew to ruin their stew.

I think the point is that "style" is skin deep. Someone just might not be very good at soft-peddling their thoughts. This should not negate the value of their thoughts. Some also may just be ignorant, insecure a-holes. The way to know the difference is to assess what they say and decide for yourself if it applies to you or not.

 

[Deacon_Blues]

Good post.

I always try to encourage people to work on what I think they need to improve on and also always give positive feedback about what in their playing/performance that is really good. There's something good and bad in every musician regardless of their skill level.

I've never been a bass teacher, but I've been told by a few amateur musicians in a band I started in a university in Sweden that I was a big source of inspiration to them, which feels nice to know. It's not my playing they were inspired by, but my experience in music and my way to coach/lead the band. Few of the band members had experience in playing in a band before, but we sounded decent anyway and we had a lot of fun. Especially the horn player learned a lot because they had to figure out themselves what to play (with some minor assistance from me though in arranging their parts). They said it made them much better musicians. Sadly enough, the band faded as I moved back to Finland. We're still good friends though, and a few of them will probably be close friends for the rest of my life.

 

[HassBacker]

No matter where you perceive your "level" to be at, there's always someone better at any aspect related to playing bass. This, combined with remembering where you started out at, should serve to give some perspective. There's always something positive that can be found in anyone's playing.
Think before you speak. Why be ignorant about it? It'll come around to bite you in the ass one day.

 

[spade2you]

Interestingly enough, I think my age bracket and everyone below falls into a bit of a generational phenomenon. I saw a 60 Minutes special about it and how it applied to grads in the job market. Long story short, everyone already thinks they're awesome, they've never been challenged, etc. The major weakness is that work ethic and determination ain't there.

In dealing with bands and musicians, I see no shortage of people who think they're awesome, despite being intermediate at best. The funny thing is that a few have gotten critiques that simply didn't register because it wasn't possible that they weren't perfect.

...just a strange side note.

 

[bkbirge]

Sometimes it's the kick in rear we all need to knock us down - the hard part is getting back up and on the horse.

This is wisdom you can bank on.

 

[Robear22]

For me I try to be a source of inspiration to all bass players I meet even if they are better than me. Everyone can learn something from someone else that includes what not to do!!!!
I teach lessons and I love it when my students progress and I witness it before my eyes. I may not have tons of chops but I understand the instrument and its role in the band.

I remember when I first started and the organist I played with kept putting me down and didn't want me to play because I was not good enough yet. I used it as motivation and it helped me practice more. When people critique you harshly use it as motivation and don't let it get you down. Every bass player had to start somewhere and no matter what technique or style you use there is someone out there who can run circles around you!!!

 

[Big Mike Ipp]

I certainly hope you (a) won't buy anything EVER at that particular sam ash (b) don't ever take your students to that sam ash ever again, and (c) let the manager of that particular sam ash know that he has lost business from you AND your students because of the behavior of his employees.

Complaining to us about the shoddy treatment you received is all well and good, but it changes nothing.:scowl: Please take some action to help improve the retail music experience for others.

I spoke with the manager after the sales rep's actions, pointed out he disrespected a potential customer and the manager agreed offered a bigger discount on the bass, however we went elsewhere. These exerpiences are quite old and I have been back there over the years, they ultimately replaced the guy and the staff they have in now are always friendly are courteous to me.

To the second part, I'm not complaining about shoddy treatment but rather the attitude of alot of bass players towards new players.

 

[tZer]

To answer more directly how I choose to interact with new players, I like to think I'm being supportive and inspirational, but that is not at the core of my actions.

When asked questions, I answer them directly and honestly without considering the inspirational/deterring properties of my answer. Putting how it impacts the listener into the equation seems to imply some sort of ability to manipulate them, which I don't want to do.
"If only I say this JUST RIGHT, this kid could hold ME up as his big inspiration!" - OR - "Oh, NO! What if I don't use the right words? Could I be responsible for crushing his spirit? Help!"

If my actions or words have any impact at all, I hope it's positive, but I don't think of that first.

If someone is in need of a boost, OK, I can offer all sorts of nice affirmations that, while true, are pretty much fluff when compared to information one can actually use to improve their situation.

Think about it for a second... Some of what WE (experienced players) consider inspirational may very well be something that causes new players to run for the hills.

Hypothetically, a young, speed metal lover asks you, an older, well-rounded studio player, what it takes to be a success. You explain how patience, playing less is more, how being able to take direction and so on is what makes you valuable. That playing hyped up guitar parts on a bass is really almost never done and that learning to be more supportive than flashy is the order of the day - will that inspire him? Were you being inspirational? Were you somehow deterring him? Who knows?

The kid sitting next to him, however, who was quietly fondling a P-Bass and thinking how much he enjoys a good groove might be inspired to no end while the speed-metal kid may think, "man, there's really no future for me here..."

So honestly - you can hope to inspire but whether or not anyone is actually inspired by you is entirely on them.

 

[DudeistMonk]

I find one of the problems for beginning bass players (or at least me) is they don't get nearly enough support, no laymen (family, friends, whoever) recognize what they play (unless its Money or Another One Bites The Dust). So nobody ever says "That was good" or "You play great" cause they don't know who from what.

More often people are asking them why they didn't pick up guitar, or if they can play *insert guitar line here* Hell I learned portrait of tracy my Jr. year of HS just so I would have something melodic to play....and people still don't care if its not guitar line they heard on the radio.

I realize now that being in a band that (that didn't read sheet music) would have been helpful to my ego amongst other things...

Moral of the story, the only person who can offer support for a young bassist is an older bassist, and we should all spread the love...I'm not the most qualified instructor on the planet but I'm teaching a broke kid down the block, I think its important to help and encourage the noobs.

 

[Spinal Tapper]

My best support person for getting better wasn't actually a bassist. It was a drummer who had about as much experience as me. We pushed each other to get better - and it worked! We're both full-time gigging musicians (in different bands now).

 

[tZer]

Spinal Tapper - you took the words right out from under my typing fingers!

DudiestMonk - what you say is very true but I have a different angle - and I think my situation is not as common as I would like to think - but I came from a school system that had an outstanding music program. So I was surrounded by all sorts of players - clarinet players, tromboners, percussionists, violinists, etc... since we all started so young and came up together in a similar system, the idea that you had to play guitar to get attention - or the very idea that you needed attention when you played your instrument never really occurred to any of us. We were much more concerned with the Christmas concert in two weeks and whether or not we'd have are parts down.

I am coming into this discussion with that as my frame of reference - so I automatically assume kids/people are playing an instrument because they want to play the instrument - not as a fashion statement. Those who are genuinely interested in getting better at what they do easily dismiss BS that doesn't matter - like ignorant commentary from Guitar Center employees.

As a teacher (OK, I only have one, 12-year old student, but I am teaching him!) I focus on the fundamentals - I give encouragement when he does well, I criticize when he's clearly spent the week on his PS II instead of his Gretch, and I make a point of talking about the real world of being a bass player - and a musician. I explain that when he's "in the real world - be that gigging with a band or auditioning for the high school jazz combo - these are the things that matter. Anything else is just a distraction. Hopefully when the time comes these words will help prepare him to deliver the goods.

I don't know if that's inspiring or not, but I'd have to assume by his clock-watching eyes that I am somewhat less that inspirational at our lessons. BUT he's still taking lessons and still making progress - so inspirational or not, I'm doing something right.

 

[DudeistMonk]

DudiestMonk - what you say is very true but I have a different angle - and I think my situation is not as common as I would like to think - but I came from a school system that had an outstanding music program. So I was surrounded by all sorts of players - clarinet players, tromboners, percussionists, violinists, etc... since we all started so young and came up together in a similar system, the idea that you had to play guitar to get attention - or the very idea that you needed attention when you played your instrument never really occurred to any of us. We were much more concerned with the Christmas concert in two weeks and whether or not we'd have are parts down.

Thats great...our band(s) where sub-par the same 20 people or so in each, only a few truly dedicated, rhythm section never got attention, I could play a song flawless or miss every note and it didn't matter (except in Jazz band, then if I F-ed up people knew). It was good though cause even though I started playing late in HS I was still able to be the bassist for the bands.

Also there is a huge difference between reading music off a piece of paper where whats written is right and thats how it goes Vs. jamming/playing in an original music environment.

I think you have to develop a bit of an ego otherwise how can you do it? if you don't believe your right then every note you hit is wrong, 100 perfectly good bass lines never get recorded or remembered and are just lost forever.

Advice to noobs is start playing with your peers in a creative environment stat.

 

[willgroove2]

Interesting subject and one close to my heart. When I began playing professionally I got no love from most of the established bassist here in Chicago with a few notable exceptions, Bill Dickens being a big one.Bill Always took the time to answer any questions I had even at 4 in the am after he just got thru playing 4 set's and was always positive and encouraging about my playing (still is). I go out of my way to encourage younger player's in part because I didn't get much myself.But I must say that there are many younger player's (25 and under) that I meet who have very different attitudes than I did when I was their age.They seem to have a different sense of entitlement and are not in learning mode when around older players.

 

[kmb523]

I know that feeling, that has happened to me at GC multiple times.. especially in my early days of bass.

 

[xk49w]

Well - just before they went on we were chatting over a few drinks and they were all complaining about the drummer - how he couldn't play and how obnoxious he was etc. etc.

I didn't realise I'd already started the recorder and when I played it back it came up with the loud rant from the band members as they were much closer to the mic, than the band.

Of course, straight after the drummer came up to me and said - wow I see you were recording that, can you get a copy for me!!

I had to make up some lame story about how it hadn't worked - so he didn't get to hear the total character assassination!

That truly put you in an awkward situation. I suspect this is more common than we wish it were.

A drummer around here, ostensibly a jazz drummer and with mega chops likes to play with any jazz event in the area. Unfortunately no one wants to play with him despite his chops. Too many fills, rolls, cymbal crashes, loudnesses, hating brushes, you get the idea. Great sense of time though - just inappropriately displayed. It is too bad. I wish he could dig how cool a groove can be. Alas, it is not to be.

Carry on.

 

[OtterOnBass]

I've found my biggest encouragement for other musicians is playing rhythm guitar. For my friend learning bass, it made his playing sound good. Instead of playing whole notes solo, he was playing a bassline that moved with another instrument. For my guitar-learning friend, he had the first chance to enjoy playing lead. Both were exhilarated from the experience and encouraged to keep playing.

I can think back to guys I wanted to learn from who had no interest in me, and I definitely don't want to be like that.

 

[magnusdeus123]

Well I usually refrain from opening my mouth in front of any amateur musician , because he might be an ego-prick who refuses to believe that he's bad and I think everyone knows what happens next .

I've met a drummer who I tried to school on basic drum knowledge . Got some bad rap for that . The guy did not use his hat's AT ALL . He was one of the poopiest drummers I've had the misfortune to meet . He'd lose time and then the entire beat would sound like a mix of bass-snare-bass-snare-bass-snare-snare-snare-snare......my god....