Do you like UREI 1176's?

[improvpwnd]

I have had the opportunity to use 4 four very old (original) UREI 1176's on a daily basis at school. Our instructor swears by them for bass, but to my ears, they muddy up the tone most of the time! What are your experiences with them? Are they just old technology or are they the legendary monsters everyone knows them to be? I am very interested to hear other bass player's point of view on this.

 

[bongomania]

I haven't used them in person, but I have read avidly about them for years. One thing I have read repeatedly is that the older originals are typically way out of spec by now unless they have received regular and recent maintenance, and often a recap and recalibration is needed. Another thing is just as a P-bass can sound disappointing to some people when playing solo, yet the sound is widely admired for how it fits into a full band mix, this sort of processing can sound weird by itself, but is just the ticket for gluing the mix together and making everything flow and sound "just right" when it's all gone through the final mixdown and pressing. I regularly see comments on recording forums from people saying "I tried a vintage Urei XYZ and it sucked, what's the big deal?" I suspect in each of those cases the units were out of spec and/or the person's expectations were "out of spec".

 

[improvpwnd]

I haven't used them in person, but I have read avidly about them for years. One thing I have read repeatedly is that the older originals are typically way out of spec by now unless they have received regular and recent maintenance, and often a recap and recalibration is needed. Another thing is just as a P-bass can sound disappointing to some people when playing solo, yet the sound is widely admired for how it fits into a full band mix, this sort of processing can sound weird by itself, but is just the ticket for gluing the mix together and making everything flow and sound "just right" when it's all gone through the final mixdown and pressing. I regularly see comments on recording forums from people saying "I tried a vintage Urei XYZ and it sucked, what's the big deal?" I suspect in each of those cases the units were out of spec and/or the person's expectations were "out of spec".

The units are ollllld... and so they probably are 'out of spec,' however I find that when using an 1176 plug, I get the same mud as when using the outboard units. Only a few times have I got ridiculously good results from compressing a bass with an 1176--I'd say about 5-10% of the time...

 

[bongomania]

Consider this: 1176's are among the most valued and coveted bass compressors of all time, and every studio worth anything has at least one. If you go onto Gearslutz or any other recording forum and look up the threads on "best/favorite compressor for bass", the high-end professionals usually reply with 1176 or LA2A. That leads me to believe whether the sound is "muddy" or not, it's exactly the sound that professional engineers want in their mixes. I'm not saying you're wrong in what you hear, not at all- but I am saying that your expectations and tastes (and probably method of listening) are different from the studio engineers who covet these things.

 

[bkbirge]

I've used them over many years, including the silver face, blackface, and modded silver versions. They are not muddy at all, however like any vintage compressor built before frequency compensation, they can dull out your tone with misuse. Of course one of the cool things about the 1176 is misusing them , especially to squash the bejeebus out of bass. I suggest you tell your school they are way behind the times and need to get whatever the latest PC plugin is. Then they can unload those 1176's to me. As Bongo says, they might be out of spec but I've used some real old 1176's at studios that I know had crap maintennance and they sounded fine. Count yourself fortunate you have 4 of them to play with. Want some fun? Cascade a couple or more of those 1176's and see what it does to the bass.

That said...

Debates about compressors and their sound in the recording world is like debates about 'which bass is best' that often get started here. The final judge should be your ears, if the gear isn't getting what you want, move on. If you get a killer bass tone no one will care if it came from a $20,000 vintage compressor or from a $100 stompbox into a DI. Experiment until you find what works for you.

 

[improvpwnd]

I've used them over many years, including the silver face, blackface, and modded silver versions. They are not muddy at all, however like any vintage compressor built before frequency compensation, they can dull out your tone with misuse. Of course one of the cool things about the 1176 is misusing them , especially to squash the bejeebus out of bass. I suggest you tell your school they are way behind the times and need to get whatever the latest PC plugin is. Then they can unload those 1176's to me. As Bongo says, they might be out of spec but I've used some real old 1176's at studios that I know had crap maintennance and they sounded fine. Count yourself fortunate you have 4 of them to play with. Want some fun? Cascade a couple or more of those 1176's and see what it does to the bass.

That said...

Debates about compressors and their sound in the recording world is like debates about 'which bass is best' that often get started here. The final judge should be your ears, if the gear isn't getting what you want, move on. If you get a killer bass tone no one will care if it came from a $20,000 vintage compressor or from a $100 stompbox into a DI. Experiment until you find what works for you.

Very cool reply. Do you find yourself EQing before or after (or both or none at all) the UREI? And besides squashing the heck out of things (which I actually like the 1176's for) I find it hard to misuse one--the attack and release knobs make only subtle differences... its like 'Slow' to 'Really Slow.' I don't think they knew 'Fast' back then

And Bongo, your right... our speakers very good Tannoy Gold 15's (with the tweets in the center), but our room is horrible, especially for lowend--there are at least 2 noticeable deadspots at about 80 hz in the room!

 

[deaf pea]

FWIW, the 1176 is a peak limiter, NOT a compressor . . . and like most of my contemporaries, I prefer the action of the DBX-160 (NOT the more recent DBX-160X!) when squashing a bass guitar OR a male vocal . . .

...the older originals are typically way out of spec by now unless they have received regular and recent maintenance, and often a recap and recalibration is needed...

True . . .

...I regularly see comments on recording forums from people saying "I tried a vintage Urei XYZ and it sucked, what's the big deal?" I suspect in each of those cases the units were out of spec and/or the person's expectations were "out of spec".

I think it's more probably a case of "operator failure"

...Do you find yourself EQing before or after (or both or none at all) the UREI?...

All of the above . . . EQing BEFORE a compressor or limiter will affect what frequencies will be compressed the most . . . and EQing AFTER the compressor or limiter WILL change the frequency balance, but with ALL of the frequency ranges equally compressed . . .

...And besides squashing the heck out of things (which I actually like the 1176's for) I find it hard to misuse one--the attack and release knobs make only subtle differences... its like 'Slow' to 'Really Slow.' I don't think they knew 'Fast' back then...

I'm sorry, but I don't think that you're REALLY talking about "fast" attack and release at all . . . if all of your experience is in using software "look-ahead"-type compressors that aren't simply "fast", they react BEFORE there even IS a sound!

And bkbirge, your comment "Experiment until you find what works for you" is SSSOOOooo right on . . .

good luck, and good hunting, improvpwnd . . .

 

[bongomania]

I think it's more probably a case of "operator failure"

You're absolutely right... I was going to say something like that but I didn't want the OP to think I was insulting him.

 

[improvpwnd]

I would agree with your 'operator failure' assessment! I am still learning and that is part of the reason I seeded this thread. The 2 knobs should make it easier to operate, but I think it makes it easier to screw up! I usually keep the attack on 1-3 and the release on 5-7 with a 4:1 ratio (I dunno what the heck are they thinking with the 8:1, 16:1, and 20:1--though some high-end engi's I've heard of use 8:1 on a UREI) I need to mess around with it some more, because just throwin stuff in with minor tweaks hasn't impresses me.

And my experience is NOT limited using software 'look ahead' compression... my comment was directed to the time when the 1176LN were first constructed--the equipment just didn't work in the nanosecond range back then.

 

[deaf pea]

...And my experience is NOT limited using software 'look ahead' compression... my comment was directed to the time when the 1176LN were first constructed--the equipment just didn't work in the nanosecond range back then.

FWIW, I wasn't trying to insult you with MY comment . . . sorry . . .

When I think of "compressor attack time", I'm thinking milleseconds, not nanoseconds . . . but then, I like more "natural sounding" compression . . . I am usually only compressing by 1 or 2 dB of gain reduction in any one compressor . . .

I remember using (in the early '70's) the UREI 175 . . . an all-tube predecessor of the 1176LN . . .

 

[bkbirge]

The 2 knobs should make it easier to operate, but I think it makes it easier to screw up!

Just practice and you'll learn how to manipulate that puppy in no time. If you want a confusing set of knobs to tweak, see if you can find a GML (George Massenberg Labs) compressor. IMO, the absolutely best solid state compressor ever created but not an easy tool to use at first. I'd rather have one of those than a rack full of anything else except maybe an old Fairchild 660.

+1 on the DBX 160's. I like the 165 more but they are a smoother sound IMO. If you want the DBX sound without the high price look for the 117/118/119/128 series of compressors. They were made for the home market and are unbalanced i/o but have the same VCA as the 160. Fantastic units that are still under the radar of most people.

 

[improvpwnd]

Just practice and you'll learn how to manipulate that puppy in no time. If you want a confusing set of knobs to tweak, see if you can find a GML (George Massenberg Labs) compressor. IMO, the absolutely best solid state compressor ever created but not an easy tool to use at first. I'd rather have one of those than a rack full of anything else except maybe an old Fairchild 660.

+1 on the DBX 160's. I like the 165 more but they are a smoother sound IMO. If you want the DBX sound without the high price look for the 117/118/119/128 series of compressors. They were made for the home market and are unbalanced i/o but have the same VCA as the 160. Fantastic units that are still under the radar of most people.

I'll have to get my hands on a GML! Unfortunately, the gear I can current fiddle with is limited to my school (one of the unbudgeted state ones) and the studios I intern at (mostly post studios and don't have extravagant gear).. at home I am using the DBX 166XL for my live bass rig since budget is a big issue!

 

[improvpwnd]

FWIW, I wasn't trying to insult you with MY comment . . . sorry . . .

When I think of "compressor attack time", I'm thinking milleseconds, not nanoseconds . . . but then, I like more "natural sounding" compression . . . I am usually only compressing by 1 or 2 dB of gain reduction in any one compressor . . .

I remember using (in the early '70's) the UREI 175 . . . an all-tube predecessor of the 1176LN . . .

No offense taken that 175 musta been even slower!

 

[Emanuel Apascaritei]

Did you try the "all button mode", this is by pressing all the ration buttons. This is to have some fun with it.

Now, the 1176 is killer on bass. But you have to know how to set it right. It´s too powerful. Remember the attack and realease are designed to work counter clockwise, clocke wise the attack and release are faster.