Do you need music theory?

[Mark Ambler]

Who needs theory when you can do this!

it's not needed, but helps a lot

IMO the most important is to listen a lot of music and build your own vocabulary based on the details you like (this is almost done unconsciously IME)

then comes theory to explain what you heard. And this might help to "crack the code" inside that lick and create some fresh another ones on your own.

More than just using theory to help understands solos, etc. Composition, use of relative Minor, 2/5/1, chord substitutions, and where would bass players be without Tri-tones? Even if you don't know what a tri-tone is, you probably use them, a lot.

 

[Tottery]

Depends what your goals are. If you just want to play along with your favorite records, probably not.

 

[LBS-bass]

So when your UNTRAINED player skips around a key, knows when to walk around a 7th, or what style to use when gigging with a jazz trio he knows absolutely 0, nothing, zilch about theory. Theory is NOT sitting in a class room using pen and paper, theory is not discussing to death is it a minor or diminished. Theory (to my experience) is NEVER gained without playing an instrument, in fact to gain my theory qualification I played 12 instruments (OK to a just above scale level but I played them).

Theory is what LAZY or FRIGHTENED players run away from, accuse us of hiding behind and call it something else when they talk about how they play.

Before anyone wants to shoot or shout at me, I am jealous of those players that have a much better ear then me, than can hear something once and play it almost note perfect. I am very lucky to have theory to fill in those gaps from my ability. I can work out a song but not by ear, but bloody hard work and theory.

Music is in your soul it cannot be taught, however if you look at a mechanic and he can fix your car because he knows that A should be doing this and it must be Z stopping it. Thats all THEORY is, the knowledge that HELPS the musician understand whats going on.

AND GET OFF MY LAWN (sorry rant over).

I happen to know someone who knows very little formal theory, is not trained in any strong sense of the word, but is somehow able to use current technology to compose and record some very sophisticated music.

Is this person musically illiterate?

 

[byacey]

I happen to know someone who knows very little formal theory, is not trained in any strong sense of the word, but is somehow able to use current technology to compose and record some very sophisticated music.

Is this person musically illiterate?

I would say so. Like a spoken language, there are many that learn to speak well and with proper grammar and sentence structure, but they may not know how to read, for whatever reason. Technically, they are illiterate.

 

[SLO Surfer]

I happen to know someone who knows very little formal theory, is not trained in any strong sense of the word, but is somehow able to use current technology to compose and record some very sophisticated music.

Is this person musically illiterate?

Can he read or write music notation?
Yes=musically literate
No=musically illiterate

il·lit·er·ate
/i(l)ˈlidərət/
adjective

1. unable to read or write.
   "his parents were illiterate"

 

[LBS-bass]

Can he read or write music notation?
Yes=musically literate
No=musically illiterate

il·lit·er·ate
/i(l)ˈlidərət/
adjective

1. unable to read or write.
   "his parents were illiterate"

This definition pertains to language. A person who is unable to read or write in their native tongue would not be able to produce a book on their own that someone else would then be able to read.

This person I'm speaking of is able to produce music that other people are able to listen to.

 

[SLO Surfer]

This definition pertains to language. A person who is unable to read or write in their native tongue would not be able to produce a book on their own that someone else would then be able to read.

This person I'm speaking of is able to produce music that other people are able to listen to.

In language, illiterate people can still talk, communicate, tell stories or jokes and otherwise entertain, but they can’t read or write. You might be looking for another word that doesn’t pertain to reading or writing music to describe your musically illiterate friend.

Your description of an illiterate person regarding language says they can’t write a book for others to read, but they could compose/speak a book or story for others to listen to. Your friend can play a song just like an illiterate person can tell a story, but neither can write them down for others to read/play on their own.

 

[LBS-bass]

In language, illiterate people can still talk, communicate, tell stories or jokes and otherwise entertain, but they can’t read or write. You might be looking for another word that doesn’t pertain to reading or writing music to describe your musically illiterate friend.

Your description of an illiterate person regarding language says they can’t write a book for others to read, but they could compose/speak a book or story for others to listen to. Your friend can play a song just like an illiterate person can tell a story, but neither can write them down for others to read/play on their own.

Yes, but the experience of listening to a book is not the same experience as reading the written word. In this case, converting the recording to the usual reading experience many people desire requires a third person.

What I'm really getting at here is that pen and paper are tools of their own time. When music notation was developed, it's what there was. There were no other ways to compose music and save it for posterity. Today we have different tools that require different skills to use. I personally do not see that the fact a particular composer is not using old-fashioned tools makes the new tools invalid when the end product is the same. IMO, getting hung up on the method is dismissive of the artistry involved in the final creation. YMMV.

 

[LBS-bass]

I would say so. Like a spoken language, there are many that learn to speak well and with proper grammar and sentence structure, but they may not know how to read, for whatever reason. Technically, they are illiterate.

I disagree. It's a different sort of literacy, but whether composing with pen and paper or with keyboards, DAWS, sequencers, and computers, you're still using the basic building blocks of music to create art.

 

[Colin Cunliffe]

I happen to know someone who knows very little formal theory, is not trained in any strong sense of the word, but is somehow able to use current technology to compose and record some very sophisticated music.

Is this person musically illiterate?

I think you missed my point, or I didnt make the point clear enough. I was saying that this person knows a lot of music (theory) but may not know the formal name for what they are doing. Also I have to ask about "is not trained in any STRONG sense of the word."

I have read postings on here where "an untrained" musician spoke about modes, pentatonic scales, arpegio, how to build a walking section etc etc. So to miss quote "define winning" or in our context define untrained.

I have coached many players (brass) who struggled with theory, but get them to play something and then explain what the technical term is for what they just did and it was amazing how they changed their opinions.

I think if your friend writes music they have a lot more theory than they realise.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think you missed my point, or I didnt make the point clear enough. I was saying that this person knows a lot of music (theory) but may not know the formal name for what they are doing. Also I have to ask about "is not trained in any STRONG sense of the word."

This person had some low-level elementary school exposure to music classes and then, later, some exposure to formally trained musicians in various bands, so learned enough vocabulary to generally get some common points across. But never really had any more formal training and doesn't really know much about chord structures.

In other words, he probably couldn't describe to you the difference between a diminished major and minor seventh chord, but could hear and play and write using those chords, and other chord forms that are not your basic first position majors and minors. He could not tell you the names of those chords, though. So, he has very limited exposure to music concepts through early education, and a good deal of practical experience, but nothing more substantial than that.

 

[Colin Cunliffe]

This person had some low-level elementary school exposure to music classes and then, later, some exposure to formally trained musicians in various bands, so learned enough vocabulary to generally get some common points across. But never really had any more formal training and doesn't really know much about chord structures.

In other words, he probably couldn't describe to you the difference between a diminished major and minor seventh chord, but could hear and play and write using those chords, and other chord forms that are not your basic first position majors and minors. He could not tell you the names of those chords, though. So, he has very limited exposure to music concepts through early education, and a good deal of practical experience, but nothing more substantial than that.

I REST MY CASE

 

[LBS-bass]

I REST MY CASE

And I agree with you, BTW. Was really just using your one post as a springboard for some additional thoughts. Thanks!

 

[Colin Cunliffe]

And I agree with you, BTW. Was really just using your one post as a springboard for some additional thoughts. Thanks!

What WHAT, you used me, Ive been abused, soiled, how dare you

 

[byacey]

This definition pertains to language. A person who is unable to read or write in their native tongue would not be able to produce a book on their own that someone else would then be able to read.

This person I'm speaking of is able to produce music that other people are able to listen to.

Music is a language just as much as English, or any of the other languages in this world.
If a person cannot convey their own music to somebody else in a written form, or read someone else's music ideas in the written form, they are illiterate.

Illiteracy however, is not the same as uneducated. Don't confuse the two. There are many highly intelligent people that are not literate, and do not have a formal education.

Additionally, there are many formally educated people that are literate, yet functional idiots.

 

[LBS-bass]

Music is a language just as much as English, or any of the other languages in this world.
If a person cannot convey their own music to somebody else in a written form, or read someone else's music ideas in the written form, they are illiterate.

Illiteracy however, is not the same as uneducated. Don't confuse the two. There are many highly intelligent people that are not literate, and do not have a formal education.

Additionally, there are many formally educated people that are literate, yet functional idiots.

I'm not confused. It's interesting that you bring up languages.

The way I view it, the language you speak is a conveyance of information. Let's say our person who cannot write or read a book is living in a place where the primary language is Russian. But they were born in the US, and educated in the US, and taught to read and write English.

Is that person functionally illiterate or literate in a Russian-only world?

Music is indeed a language, but the forms we use to convey it are exactly that, and only that. It's easy to confuse the tools we use to record music for music itself and I'd be willing to suggest that our traditional educational systems encourage this confusion.

 

[byacey]

I'm not confused. It's interesting that you bring up languages.

The way I view it, the language you speak is a conveyance of information. Let's say our person who cannot write or read a book is living in a place where the primary language is Russian. But they were born in the US, and educated in the US, and taught to read and write English.

Is that person functionally illiterate or literate in a Russian-only world? Yes, they are illiterate in Russian, literate in English.

Here's something to think about: I learned to read and write Ukrainian as a child, but my vocabulary, sentence structure and grammar is almost non existent. By definition, I'm literate, but cannot functionally use the language.

A musician that can read, can hear the music in their head, as they read it. A musician who cannot read is unable to do this. They are illiterate. Again, literacy or illiteracy has nothing to do with a person's intelligence or education, only that they are able to read and write a specific language.

Millions, if not billions of people use computers, but only a small fraction of a percentage are literate in binary and hexadecimal machine language programming. The rest are illiterate in that language.

 

[LBS-bass]

Here's something to think about: I learned to read and write Ukrainian as a child, but my vocabulary, sentence structure and grammar is almost non existent. By definition, I'm literate, but cannot functionally use the language.

A musician that can read, can hear the music in their head, as they read it. A musician who cannot read is unable to do this. They are illiterate. Again, literacy or illiteracy has nothing to do with a person's intelligence or education, only that they are able to read and write a specific language.

Millions, if not billions of people use computers, but only a small fraction of a percentage are literate in binary and hexadecimal machine language programming. The rest are illiterate in that language.

I think that a musician that can hear and create music in their head only needs some way to translate what is in their head to something that can be shared with others. Such a person could use a pen and paper to transcribe that, or they could use other tools. The difference between what you and I seem to be saying appears to boil down to whether or not musical literacy is defined by the use of one specific set of tools and not another one.

 

[Mark Ambler]

I think that a musician that can hear and create music in their head only needs some way to translate what is in their head to something that can be shared with others. Such a person could use a pen and paper to transcribe that, or they could use other tools.

Tell me about the 'other tools', please.

 

[LBS-bass]

Tell me about the 'other tools', please.

I think you need to catch up. This is the end of a lengthy discussion. It's all been described in detail in the posts above yours.