Do you need to play Roots!?!

[J-Bassomatic]

I like when beginner bass players are trying to expand the "realm" of the bass guitar use.

(Any time anybody posts a question related to Music at TB, it would be nice to know the Style/genre of the Music we are talking about. )

Here is a "lyrically-groovy" song from my "good" days when I was a young musician.

Its' mostly is a repetitive Em9 and A13 chord progression and the bass mostly plays the roots (and it sounds so good to me).
Please try to "improve" that "boring" bass line consisting primarily of the roots, while I enjoy that soft groove of the song.

OMG, I saw Boz Scaggs years ago at Bossom Music Center in NE Ohio in a jaw dropping perfect performance. Truly amazing. An under-rated musician (except those who know). I liked his records and songs but the live performance I saw was WAY beyond expectations. Sorry back to the post.

 

[NullPorch]

There's a balance to be struck between doing what is expected for the sake of flow and doing what is unique for sake of interest. That is, if there is a part where the root is expected because otherwise, for example, you're left hanging with a feeling of lack of resolution on that chord then you should play the root there. However, a lot of the time, you have freedom to play around within the chord being played to create movement within the song. That's where you get to add feeling and emotional meaning to what you're playing. This is especially true in 3-pieces where the sonic space for melodic lines isn't completely filled with guitar/keys, or any band where the bass is actually given the freedom to be its own melodic instrument adding to the song as opposed to relegated to in-key metronome duty as in some bands.

 

[12BitSlab]

You can avoid roots - just do it judiciously. I have a good background in Jazz. Many years ago, I did an arrangement of "Take the 'A' Train" where I played the 5th on the first beat of a chord. It came out sounding wonderful. Just don't do it all the time. It works in places, but not everywhere.

 

[NullPorch]

I like when beginner bass players are trying to expand the "realm" of the bass guitar use.

That, in the context of your full post, feels like sarcasm implying bass has a limited scope of capability within music and that you believe everyone should stick to that. While I do agree that there is definitely a necessity for maturity to temper how avant-garde or unique you try to be, I also think experimentation, often through trial and error, and even a purposeful challenging of the established way of things generally results in growth and advancement. In all fields of art. And seeing as the bass is an artistic tool limited only by your technical ability and artistic creativity I don't think it's fair to delegate it to one specific role.

 

[HolmeBass]

TL;DR, but I agree, you need not play the root. Although I might stress it would be best, on the first beat of a chord change, to at least play a chord tone rather than a non-chord tone diatonic to that chord's scale. Although in some cases where even that could work. One that comes to mind is found in some funk, reggae, and even blues tunes where you might play the flat 7 and then hammer on to the 1. You could get more wild. You could really push it and play the 4. You must judge if it sounds good.

I would also say if you eschew root throughout a significant portion of a song, unless your line functions like a melody or a descending or ascending figure with clear motion, you'll probably end up making the song sound very unsettled and to most listeners just "wrong".

 

[msfeldman]

You can play any note as long as it fits in the song.

 

[msfeldman]

In jazz we learn from the other musicians in the ensemble. If they are better musicians, they are listening to you for ideas both rhythmically and tonally. Play the Root at key times to identify certain passages and turn-arounds. Play the root on the first beat of a chord that goes on for more than one measure then utilize passing tones or other chord tones in the additional measures - the options available are endless.

 

[danosix]

Time to go transcribe some Jamerson.

I'd say no, you don't, but to cite the cliché - serve the song. I mention Jamerson because he went into the studio where they gave him these R&B songs, but instead of chugging on roots under them he thought like the jazz musician he was and played something much more free and creative and funky - and you got the Motown sound. On the other hand, if you're going to play Neil Young's "Rockin in the Free World" and NOT play the roots, they'll throw you out. You have to know what you're trying to get across in the music.

Of course, he did play a LOT of roots - b/c funky.
I totally agree that roots as a philosophy is wrong, but not roots as a philosophy is wrong too.
When you are NOT playing you roots you need to know WHY - as the bass tends to change the sound of the whole arrangement, you need to know what choosing some other chord tone or scale tone will do to the rest of the band.
Playing only roots is boring, not playing roots can be wrong.

 

[mambo4]

when one finds root notes 'boring'...

It is more useful to explore what can happen between root notes
than what can happen instead of root notes.

also more useful to explore choices beyond pitch

as has been said, it's not root notes that cause a boring bass line.

 

[W.Roberts]

ok, peoples, before you blaze me away, please hear me out... So I know conventional teaching would state that when the chord strikes A minor, your proper functioning as bassist is to play the root (A). Now, I know this is most common, however, in theory if you know the song is in A minor, couldn't you just play any note in the A minor scale so long as you flow well with the song? I mean, do you have to play the root necessarily? Now, I don't just say this based on blind philosophy, I watched the Flea Bass DVD hour (the video is essentially his introduction to the bass guitar and how to begin about playing it) video, (you can find it easily with a YT search...), and he goes over everything you would expect for the bass guitar, BUT, he never mentions anything about playing the root notes. Now I'm not trying to say we should all mold ourselves off Flea, tho he does kick ass, but seriously... What are your thoughts, does it really matter. Now I know many of you will probably say, "well all that matters is what sounds good to your ear". And you're right, however, I'm just trying to drum up some interesting conversation. Peace, love, and low end!

The root can be played by anyone.Somewhere someone is gonna have to make the root heard. You can play all substitutions theoretically and never play the root note but that stuff is for real jazz snobs IMHO. There's very few cats who can seriously play through complex chord structures implying the root but never stating such either as soloists or in smaller groups. Now, I wish I could drop a few names of bassists who are way more on the melodic end of the instrument rather than strictly fundamental players like Jamerson and Rainey but they escape me because I am a Rainey devotee and I am his poorest imitation. But I play to turn people on through how I play a pocket to where everybody can get down. Factually I hate soloing. I am a groove hound because that's what Jamerson and Rainey gave to me -- a love supreme.

 

[W.Roberts]

Of course, he did play a LOT of roots - b/c funky.
I totally agree that roots as a philosophy is wrong, but not roots as a philosophy is wrong too.
When you are NOT playing you roots you need to know WHY - as the bass tends to change the sound of the whole arrangement, you need to know what choosing some other chord tone or scale tone will do to the rest of the band.
Playing only roots is boring, not playing roots can be wrong.

Helps to have smart others in the mix who can play the substitutions to where the bass has more options what to reinforce or change. Max Bennett comes to mind. Brilliant, someone needing to be rediscovered by younger players.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Playing only roots is boring,

Where are you getting that kind of notion that you need to play only roots?

I know for sure it's not coming from my comments.

That, in the context of your full post, feels like sarcasm implying bass has a limited scope of capability within music

A very nice comment.
Just a few notes.
Have you noticed that I wrote "beginner" bass players?
Are you saying that it's OK to tell a "beginner" bass player, "You can play any notes"?
How would you describe a beginner bass player?

Now.
I have posted about 5,000 comments at TB, and I've deleted a lot.
Currently, I show 3635 comments in my account.
Here is my rhetorical question.

Do you think you can find even one(!) comment where I've said/written, "You must just play the root"?
It's a rhetorical question.
What's more, I've been accused of playing way too much of everything/anything else.

I also think experimentation, often through trial and error, and even a purposeful challenging of the established way of things generally results in growth and advancement. In all fields of art.

Yes, that's why we call it "experimentation".
I'm 100% behind any experimentation, depending on where and how it's done.

I've been there, I've done it!

You see in my world, I prefer to learn the "ropes", to know why it's the way it is, etc..., before I say to someone, "You can play any note you want".

Let's move from the "bass talkers" forum to the "bass players" one.
Around two years ago, (when I was full of enthusiasm and before my favorite laptop crashed), I've used to post quite a few sound clips related to this or that topic at TalkBass.
Here is one of them. (It was deleted after posting.)

I've concocted a four bar/measure harmonic exercise.

I'm ashamed to say but I could not figure out what notes to play on the bass.
I've asked our TB forum for help, but only one (1) TB member tried to help me with that task.
"My problem is that I still cannot figure out the main bass notes for that progression.
The best I could come up for the bass (as the main notes not some "embellishments") is the following:
E in the first bar,
D (or G) in the second bar,
C# in the third bar, and
C /B(? on Beat4) in the fourth bar."

Some said, "Hey, it depends on the melody".
I've concocted some kind of "melody", but still no answers.

Maybe, you could help me with it?
I would take any even chromatic notes.
Thank you in advance.

Here is that sound clip. I've programmed the drums, played the "rhythm guitar" on my Jazz Bass, and recorded some kind of lame "melody" with the keyboard.
It's a long clip - 2 x "melody", "no melody", and again, 2 x "melody".
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=18d1d15fd730b0c0a98c4263e8af842b

 

[SteveBook]

Good question to consider if there are some chord changes that you can work around. I would give it two answers. The standard thinking is strong beats receive chord tones, weak beats receive non chord tones. Depends really on what works with the melody particularly if someone is singing. Root on the first beat of every bar can get a little tiring though it can be hypnotic and rock the dance floor too. Listen to that Box Scaggs tune, it got millions of listeners dancing. I tip my hat to the gentleman who suggests transcribe James Jamerson Motown recordings.

 

[Jonathan D]

ok, peoples, before you blaze me away, please hear me out... So I know conventional teaching would state that when the chord strikes A minor, your proper functioning as bassist is to play the root (A). Now, I know this is most common, however, in theory if you know the song is in A minor, couldn't you just play any note in the A minor scale so long as you flow well with the song? I mean, do you have to play the root necessarily? Now, I don't just say this based on blind philosophy, I watched the Flea Bass DVD hour (the video is essentially his introduction to the bass guitar and how to begin about playing it) video, (you can find it easily with a YT search...), and he goes over everything you would expect for the bass guitar, BUT, he never mentions anything about playing the root notes. Now I'm not trying to say we should all mold ourselves off Flea, tho he does kick ass, but seriously... What are your thoughts, does it really matter. Now I know many of you will probably say, "well all that matters is what sounds good to your ear". And you're right, however, I'm just trying to drum up some interesting conversation. Peace, love, and low end!

If you are in a top-40 or cover band, then yes, copy what the original bass player did. If you are lucky, and the choice of material is good, you will have interesting bass lines to play. not just root notes. You can make decent money at it, too.
If you want to be a creative musician rather than a human sequencer, hopefully youʻll find a good songwriter to collaborate with, or write songs that you can perform with other musicians. If you believe in the songs, youʻll make the effort to create bass lines which complement the music. If the songwriter is open-minded and secure, youʻll be able to contribute a lot, because bass players usually write the best bass lines. If a songwriter is not open to this, they need to learn to write out bass parts, sequence them, or play bass themselves, in my opinion.
A good bass line often contains root, thirds, fifths, sevenths, tenths, flat fives, etc. but the roots are usually most important in establishing the tonality of the piece. Remember, most listeners are tuned into the melody, rhythm and lyrics, and the bass line should complement these, not distract from them. A great bass line often manages to be a "hook", an almost subliminal catchphrase which pulls the listener into the song. It could be a walking bass line that spells out the chords, a simple one-five ostinato, or anything in between. I thing the most inmportant factor in being a good bassist is listening to great bassists and internalizing how they play.

 

[Jonathan D]

I look at it like this.

If you don't play the root on the 1 then the chord in that section is more ambiguous or possibly changed to a completely different chord.

Maybe that's desirable, maybe it isn't. Depends on who's listening and if they are paying you to do that.


I would usually only do something like that on an original song that I perceive as boring. It can make for some very interesting chord transitions.

But one rule of thumb that I would recommend is that every musician wants to do something interesting and unique and it's usually best if everyone doesn't do their special little thing at the same time or all through the whole damn song. That's how you end up playing jazz and no one likes jazz.

I donʻt like jazz, I passionately LOVE jazz! Even more, I love what a band like Steely Dan can create by melding many forms of jazz, pop, funk, salsa, big band, blues, swing, ballads, etc into American pop. Now, there are some interesting, creative, diverse bass lines.

 

[Nev375]

I donʻt like jazz, I passionately LOVE jazz! Even more, I love what a band like Steely Dan can create by melding many forms of jazz, pop, funk, salsa, big band, blues, swing, ballads, etc into American pop. Now, there are some interesting, creative, diverse bass lines.

Nice.

Better get your sarcasm detector checked out. It completely missed the "".

 

[SteveCS]

If you are in a top-40 or cover band, then yes, copy what the original bass player did. If you are lucky, and the choice of material is good, you will have interesting bass lines to play. not just root notes. You can make decent money at it, too.
If you want to be a creative musician rather than a human sequencer, hopefully youʻll find a good songwriter to collaborate with, or write songs that you can perform with other musicians. If you believe in the songs, youʻll make the effort to create bass lines which complement the music. If the songwriter is open-minded and secure, youʻll be able to contribute a lot, because bass players usually write the best bass lines. If a songwriter is not open to this, they need to learn to write out bass parts, sequence them, or play bass themselves, in my opinion.
A good bass line often contains root, thirds, fifths, sevenths, tenths, flat fives, etc. but the roots are usually most important in establishing the tonality of the piece. Remember, most listeners are tuned into the melody, rhythm and lyrics, and the bass line should complement these, not distract from them. A great bass line often manages to be a "hook", an almost subliminal catchphrase which pulls the listener into the song. It could be a walking bass line that spells out the chords, a simple one-five ostinato, or anything in between. I thing the most inmportant factor in being a good bassist is listening to great bassists and internalizing how they play.

In addition, I think what you choose to include in the bass part depends on the instrumentation of your band and how you interpret the songs or tunes you play. For example, if the tune has prominent or significant horn or string phrases but you don't have the luxury of a horn or string section you might include some of those phrases or in the bass line. For example, when we play 'Valentine Blues' by Jools Holland, in addition to my own walking part, I also play the brass part between verses using double-stops (mainly 3rds and 6ths) in the upper register on the fretless bass. On Sam Browns 'Stop!' I pick out the string/Cello parts for similar treatment.

 

[Reedt2000]

In addition, I think what you choose to include in the bass part depends on the instrumentation of your band and how you interpret the songs or tunes you play. For example, if the tune has prominent or significant horn or string phrases but you don't have the luxury of a horn or string section you might include some of those phrases or in the bass line. For example, when we play 'Valentine Blues' by Jools Holland, in addition to my own walking part, I also play the brass part between verses using double-stops (mainly 3rds and 6ths) in the upper register on the fretless bass. On Sam Browns 'Stop!' I pick out the string/Cello parts for similar treatment.

That's a good point. I used to play Superstition by Stevie Wonder in a band with no horns or keys and I would double the horn parts with the electric guitar in the 2nd half of the verses.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It so nice to see that a lot of TB members are Jazz musicians with a lot of experience.

P.S. Just my opinion. Classical Music is full of those "non-Root" lowest notes. Just study and listen to the humongous volumes of Classical Music. It's all there.
(P.S. Try to internalize the sound/Aurality simple chords and there inversions first. Try to hear and discern, and internalize the differences of first, second, etc... inversions.)
(P.S. 2. Please make a note about the "decoupling" of the melody and the accompaniment prevalent in our current "easy listening" music.

N.B. I always(!!!) see a/any bass line as a second melody!

Now, let's get back to some examples. More than 2 years ago, I was young and energetic, and posted some comments in a TB thread, "What notes to play in the bass" (or something like that). Those kinds of threads are constantly popping up at TB, along with "Good/Bad Metronome", "I love/I hate Slap", "Should I play with the pick", "What Mode it is", etc...
Nothing new under the Sun.

(For entertainment purpose only)

Many months have passed since my posting.There was only only one comment; therefore, I've deleted it.
I was asking our TB members about their opinion/s on the "best" sounding in that context bass note/s.

Here is what I did. I took a few min7b5 chords (and made some kind of chord progression), and (with the keyboard) recorded the bass of that chord progression by changing/rotating the bass notes - starting with the root, First, second, third inversion/s, plus some "non-chord" note/s.
Here is a standard chord notation.

Here is the bass note position/location.

Here is a sound clip of just programmed drums with synth bass and harmony.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=546f21c64134d3ccc1b6536243c641a0

Here we have a sound clip with the programmed drums, synth bass and harmony, plus some "a la guitar" played by me on my Jazz Bass(???) :***:
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=546f21c64134d3ccc1b6536243c641a0

And here is a sound clip of the programmed drums, synth bass, harmony, some "a la guitar" and some lame "tune".
(Usually, similar questions about the bass-line in relation/s to the underlying harmony always ends with, "It depends on the melody; therefore, I've concocted "something", just to have it.)
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=546f21c64134d3ccc1b6536243c641a0

I know I commented about my favorite choice of bass note/s, but it was a long time ago; therefore, I can't recall what I said/wrote.

P.S. I've started posting too much "stuff". I hope it won't lead to the "WUTP horrible music" thread.

 

[SteveCS]

It so nice to see that a lot of TB members are Jazz musicians with a lot of experience.

P.S. Just my opinion. Classical Music is full of those "non-Root" lowest notes. Just study and listen to the humongous volumes of Classical Music. It's all there.

...

That's a really good point and absolutely true. And there is more to it than just the choice of lowest note. How that note is executed is often more important than just the pitch class. Take the prelude to Bach Suite 1. In the first major key section (before it goes around the houses), the first note of every other bar is marked Tenuto. It gets more time than the 1/16 might suggest. In bar 1, low note (G) it is Root. In bar 2 it is m3 of an Em chord but still gets the Tenuto to maintain the key centre. Here's a pic of my annotated copy showing how I interpret the Tenuto...