Do you need to play Roots!?!

[ThePresident777]

ok, peoples, before you blaze me away, please hear me out... So I know conventional teaching would state that when the chord strikes A minor, your proper functioning as bassist is to play the root (A). Now, I know this is most common, however, in theory if you know the song is in A minor, couldn't you just play any note in the A minor scale so long as you flow well with the song? I mean, do you have to play the root necessarily? Now, I don't just say this based on blind philosophy, I watched the Flea Bass DVD hour (the video is essentially his introduction to the bass guitar and how to begin about playing it) video, (you can find it easily with a YT search...), and he goes over everything you would expect for the bass guitar, BUT, he never mentions anything about playing the root notes. Now I'm not trying to say we should all mold ourselves off Flea, tho he does kick ass, but seriously... What are your thoughts, does it really matter. Now I know many of you will probably say, "well all that matters is what sounds good to your ear". And you're right, however, I'm just trying to drum up some interesting conversation. Peace, love, and low end!

It depends on who likes the sound of the intervals being played. You could follow the guitarist around the song playing a minor second to whatever he plays and it will possibly sound very tense and wobbly.

You should get a good book on harmony such as Twentieth Century Harmony by Persichetti and Norton.

 

[ThePresident777]

I like when beginner bass players are trying to expand the "realm" of the bass guitar use.

(Any time anybody posts a question related to Music at TB, it would be nice to know the Style/genre of the Music we are talking about. )

Here is a "lyrically-groovy" song from my "good" days when I was a young musician.

Its' mostly is a repetitive Em9 and A13 chord progression and the bass mostly plays the roots (and it sounds so good to me).
Please try to "improve" that "boring" bass line consisting primarily of the roots, while I enjoy that soft groove of the song.

That's a boring song, just my opinion.

 

[Stranger Danger]

Nope

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Watchootognbout]

It depends on who likes the sound of the intervals being played. You could follow the guitarist around the song playing a minor second to whatever he plays and it will possibly sound very tense and wobbly.

You should get a good book on harmony such as Twentieth Century Harmony by Perschetti and Norton.

YEAH!

Now you're getting into my mindset!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Actually,the bassline is not doing just the root E.

Do you agree with my statement,
"Here is one of those "boring" bass-lines with mostly root notes?"

 

[Captain Chaos]

Roots bloody roots


Great song

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You should get a good book on harmony such as Twentieth Century Harmony by Perschetti and Norton.

I've just imagined this.
A Band Leader with a singer is asking a bass player, "Could you play the root, please?".
"No", says the bass player. "I've just watched "Extreme Jazz Fussion Reharmonization".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That's a boring song, just my opinion.

Cool.
Thanks for listening.

Some examples of good reharmonization.

 

[James Collins]

A song is typically in a key. Each key has certain chords that sound pleasant together. A progression of these chords comprise the foundation of the song.

The bass like most instruments has the primary function of highlighting this chord progression. That can be done by playing any notes that sounds good within the chord progression. Most often this will incorporate root notes since they highlight a chord well, but it could be any notes that sounds good with that chord.

 

[ThePresident777]

I've just imagined this.
A Band Leader with a singer is asking a bass player, "Could you play the root, please?".
"No", says the bass player. "I've just watched "Extreme Jazz Fussion Reharmonization".

BP: "I've just played them all. Are you not familiar with Twentieth Century Harmony by Persichetti and Norton?"

BL: "You, fired. Intern! Bring me my sandwich. Lunch awaits."

 

[Nashrakh]

A song is typically in a key. Each key has certain chords that sound pleasant together. A progression of these chords comprise the foundation of the song.

You just made me think of a little experiment to try. We could treat a pop song like a Sonata: after establishing the key firmly in the exposition (maybe first verse and chorus), we go completely hogwild on the reharmonization in the middle, then go back to the home key for the reprisal, maybe the last chorus and an outro (coda?).

I can bet some of you can whip up some examples of this on the spot.

 

[tsheldon]

I like your comment, but I've decided to check on your "Ron Carter playing damn near any note but the root."

N.B. Please don't forget we are talking about the Great Miles Davis and Ron Carter playing some "serious jazz".
I truly doubt that the OP has reached that kind of Jazz level.

Here is just a snapshot from that video.
I've highlighted the Root notes. Let's check it out.
It's not at the beginning of the song.
I'm sorry, I forgot to highlight the root note in Measure 178.
View attachment 1173104

You pick out one chorus where he plays the root and ignore the others. Nice job! Way to miss the point!
I assume in your infinite wisdom you realize that the chords in that video sheet music are an analysis of what was played on the recording not the actual changes of the tune.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

You pick out one chorus where he plays the root and ignore the others. Nice job! Way to miss the point!
I assume in your infinite wisdom you realize that the chords in that video sheet music are an analysis of what was played on the recording not the actual changes of the tune.

Here are my points.

1. When I hear/see a question like, "Can I play other than the root notes on the bass", it could only(!!!) be said by a beginner/brand new beginner bass player,
a. who has no (or just very superficial) knowledge about Harmony (the vertical chord structure), about the bass part as a comping instrument in the group/rhythm group, etc...
2. who has not transcribed bass lines of other good bass player,
3. who does not even understand about the Strong/Weak Beats in the Bar/Measure, who does not have understanding about Beat1, Beat2, Beat3, Beat4.

Do you know what kind of Music/Style the OP (the beginner bass player) is playing???
Is it country music?
Is it Hip hop?
Is it Pop music?

If you don't know what kind of music the OP is playing, how can you give the OP ANY advice???

I still don't understand the OP's question.

Now.
Let's move onto a different subject.

Miles Davis is my MOST FAVORITE Jazz Musician! The ONE and ONLY!!!
There are NO MORE Miles Davis in the WORLD.
(I'm not talking about any copycats.)
Ron Carter is one of my most favorite upright bass players.
Without getting into some "lame" discussion about that(!!!) particular live performance from your video,
just tell me this.
What kind of advice are you giving to a beginner bass player who, maybe, plays country music, by throwing some "exceptional parts of a bass-line, produced while being in a different "trance" world of JAZZ?

P.S. There are so many(!!!) walking bass tutorials, plus so many(!!!) threads about it at TB.
I highly recommend Chris Fitzgerald's (our TB staff member) book on walking bass.
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Next.
If the OP is playing some "experimental" music, then the OP must have solid knowledge or at least some solid "vision" about that "experimental" music.

Here is one of my biggest pet peeves with similar to the OP questions.

But where is the GROOVE, where is the SWING?

Anyway.
As soon as the OP starts transcribing some bass lines from the music style that beginner bass player is playing/listening, as soon as the OP starts comparing those bass notes to the related chords, etc...
then, it will be possible to answer some specific questions about the bass note/s with this or that chord.
Everything else is just "something to talk about!"

Here is what I mean.
In a different thread, one of our knowledgeable and experienced TB members asked a specific question about the following chord, Fm7(9) for the guitar/keyboard player with the bass note Db in a very specific measure of a very specific soul/gospel song.

As always, thanks for your answer. Let's take a look at Ron Carter's bass-lines from "Stella".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We could treat a pop song like a Sonata: after establishing the key firmly in the exposition (maybe first verse and chorus), we go completely hogwild on the reharmonization in the middle, then go back to the home key for the reprisal

It's been done in the past, currently, and will be done in the future.
NOTHING NEW HERE!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

To all my dear TB members.
If somebody would create the most complex chord in the world, there would be the note for the bass.
Just ONE specific note to fit/match that specific AURAL sound of that chord.
How upset would you be playing that "specific" note?

P.S. Please, describe your Aural perception (only your personal "vision") of inversions of just a simple C major chord, and share with us.

 

[brianrost]

Don't be so tough on the beginner bass players.

I'm not being tough...it's a useful exercise for anybody.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm not being tough...it's a useful exercise for anybody.

The root note is a very important note for any bass players. We play a lot of roots. A beginner bass player must understand and accept it.
A pro driver must expect a lot of driving. If the driver does not like driving, become an office clerk, or switch from the bass to some flute .

N.B. A soloist/instrumentalist bass player has a lot of exceptions.


It's all about how the bass player plays the root/s plus any other notes, and how those notes, that bass-line fulfills the requirements of the style,
of the song,
of the composer,
of the arranger,
of the singer,
of the BL,
of the band,etc...
A knowledgeable bass player should be always careful about any unexpected reharmonization attempts.

 

[HaphAsSard]

ok, peoples, before you blaze me away, please hear me out... So I know conventional teaching would state that when the chord strikes A minor, your proper functioning as bassist is to play the root (A). Now, I know this is most common, however, in theory if you know the song is in A minor, couldn't you just play any note in the A minor scale so long as you flow well with the song? I mean, do you have to play the root necessarily? Now, I don't just say this based on blind philosophy, I watched the Flea Bass DVD hour (the video is essentially his introduction to the bass guitar and how to begin about playing it) video, (you can find it easily with a YT search...), and he goes over everything you would expect for the bass guitar, BUT, he never mentions anything about playing the root notes. Now I'm not trying to say we should all mold ourselves off Flea, tho he does kick ass, but seriously... What are your thoughts, does it really matter. Now I know many of you will probably say, "well all that matters is what sounds good to your ear". And you're right, however, I'm just trying to drum up some interesting conversation. Peace, love, and low end!

Not sure if it has been covered in the thread, but there are acoustic reasons why playing roots as the lowest voice (be it on bass guitar, double bass or whatever instrument performs bass duties in the arrangement) is the norm.
Theory of Harmony
Arnold Schoenberg, Theory of Harmony, pp. 52ff
In short, chord inversions are less consonant than the triad in root position, because the overtones of the bass voice, fairly audible because of its being one of the outer voices, conflict with the actual chord makeup to a degree. Especially the second inversion, with the fifth at the bottom, used to be treated as dissonances were - i.e. prepared and resolved - in Common Practice...practice. Practical implications aside (bandleaders, stylistic constraints proper to the specific conventions of a given genre, interplay with other bass-heavy instruments like piano) you are free to use whatever chord voice you feel like as the bass note, but be prepared to face consequences. Art is by no means strictly about the pretty or the neat, of course; "if it sounds good," etc.

 

[gorskkr]

Oh, wow... Lots of responses! Well, let me clear up a misperception from my post. I wasn't implying that I hate the root note or I want to get away from it and how to do so. I also, wasn't saying or asking "what other notes can i play" besides the root. I think some of you glimpsed into the true nature of what i was really asking....

from thinking about this further, and I think some of you got what i was really eluding to with my question... It appears the answer depends most appropriately to the situation you find yourself in as a bassist. Bassists who play in bands that mostly cover other peoples music or perhaps session musicians who have a strict role to adhere to have to play in a more traditional/common place role/function. Bc in the specific situation, the audience (cd buyers, record company, club owner, members of your band, etc) are expecting you to play a certain role. and in those situations you do what you have to, however, I'm not in that particular situation, or at least thats not where my question points.

I should of added that I'm mostly a solo musician so I compose and play all the parts to the songs I create. I have the bass fill whatever function it needs to fit the song I'm trying to put forth. I also have no underlying style, so i just create compositions that our inspiring and coming out of me at the given moment. I do respect a tonal center and i like embellishing upon more exotic sounding intervals, and sometimes the bass will be more of the lead line that will dance around large extended chords. So I guess for the music I create, bc I'm the sole propieter of it; Its really up to me.

 

[el jeffe bass]

Oh, wow... Lots of responses! Well, let me clear up a misperception from my post. I wasn't implying that I hate the root note or I want to get away from it and how to do so. I also, wasn't saying or asking "what other notes can i play" besides the root. I think some of you glimpsed into the true nature of what i was really asking....

from thinking about this further, and I think some of you got what i was really eluding to with my question... It appears the answer depends most appropriately to the situation you find yourself in as a bassist. Bassists who play in bands that mostly cover other peoples music or perhaps session musicians who have a strict role to adhere to have to play in a more traditional/common place role/function. Bc in the specific situation, the audience (cd buyers, record company, club owner, members of your band, etc) are expecting you to play a certain role. and in those situations you do what you have to, however, I'm not in that particular situation, or at least thats not where my question points.

I should of added that I'm mostly a solo musician so I compose and play all the parts to the songs I create. I have the bass fill whatever function it needs to fit the song I'm trying to put forth. I also have no underlying style, so i just create compositions that our inspiring and coming out of me at the given moment. I do respect a tonal center and i like embellishing upon more exotic sounding intervals, and sometimes the bass will be more of the lead line that will dance around large extended chords. So I guess for the music I create, bc I'm the sole propieter of it; Its really up to me.[/QUOTE

So why ask the original question in the first place?