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Do you need to play Roots!?!

#121
Whousedtoplay said:
Let's say, you need to record a bass-line for the following group, and the song has SOOOOO much space.
Would you try to fill it with a lot of bass notes?
A beautiful song.
Click to expand...


Not every song needs to be busy. Honestly though, this does feel a little lacking on the low end and I hear space for more bass (maybe soft, simple octave chords followed by a brief counter-melody after the vocals/guitar). I'd keep it very soft, especially the low chords; very organ like. Maybe bring them up more and add the fifth during the louder section. Or maybe try some dominant 7 chords there.

There are obvious moments of sound-texture where any line would be out of place. It is a very nice piece.
 
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#123
Whousedtoplay said:
I just want to ask my TB colleagues about the following bass-line.
Is it a "pounding the root/s" bass-line or no?

Click to expand...


The bass line reminds me a lot of ska. It's like a really fast walking line going up through each chord (primarily root and fifth I think; like a power chord) with some other fills here and there on the chorus. On the verses it gets way more mellow and follows a descending line.
 
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#125
Some info from the Internet.

"A bassist who plays nothing but roots, but makes sure they are the correct roots played at the correct rhythm and tempo will always beat a bassist who plays all over the fretboard with no regard for the chord sequence or song structure."

How To Play Bass Guitar

"As a bass player, you have four tools at your disposal to provide emphasis, or the lack thereof, to a beat. They are: 1. Play the root note of the chord being played on a given beat. This is the strongest, most emphatic note you can play. 2. Play a note on the beat, but not the root note of the chord. This is still emphatic but not so much so as the root note. 3. Don't play a new note on the beat, but carry over the note you were playing on the previous beat. This de-emphasizes the beat, because the bass isn't adding a new sound on it. 4. Rest: play no note at all. This is the most de-emphasizing thing you can do on a beat. The most important part of writing a bass line is deciding which beats to emphasize and which beats not to emphasize. In particular, dec"iding where to use rests to de-emphasize a beat is essential to constructing good, solid, supporting bass lines."
Bass Lesson. Part 2 - The Role of the Bass Line | Guitar Lesson
 
#127
dnp41 said:
check out Adam Neely's video on Bass re-harmonization (on youtube, sorry I'm at work and can't access youtube). It will answer your question and many more.
Click to expand...

(P.S. While on my patio by myself, I can re-harmonize anything I want.)

While Adam is re-harmonizing Adele, I wanted to express two things about it.
1. I did not like it. (As Adam says in the video - It's all about your "taste".)
2. Why did not Adele re-harmonized it?




Once again, what sounds "proprietary-good" and "proprietary-tasteful" in the bedroom or on the patio, does not automatically converts into the right "sound" playing live with the band.

I truly believe that quite a few classically-educated bass players tend to disregard/emphasize the "independence"/"separation"/"decoupling"/autonomy of the Melody and the backing/accompaniment in Pop, Rock, Soul, R&B, etc... - Easy Listening - Music.

Also, when I hear about the bass players "re-harmonizing themselves" a/any song, I always remember my band/team players - the guitar/keyboard/piano(very serious composers/arrangers)/etc..., who also(!) have a lot of ideas about re-harmonizing the song, and sometimes those ideas don't match the bass-players' vision.

Another important point missing from this conversation.
While others are looking for that NOTE with "Wow" attached, I always want to hear that Swing, Groove, microtiming, etc...
 
#128
Whousedtoplay said:
(P.S. While on my patio by myself, I can re-harmonize anything I want.)

While Adam is re-harmonizing Adele, I wanted to express two things about it.
1. I did not like it. (As Adam says in the video - It's all about your "taste".)
2. Why did not Adele re-harmonized it?




Once again, what sounds "proprietary-good" and "proprietary-tasteful" in the bedroom or on the patio, does not automatically converts into the right "sound" playing live with the band.

I truly believe that quite a few classically-educated bass players tend to disregard/emphasize the "independence"/"separation"/"decoupling"/autonomy of the Melody and the backing/accompaniment in Pop, Rock, Soul, R&B, etc... - Easy Listening - Music.

Also, when I hear about the bass players "re-harmonizing themselves" a/any song, I always remember my band/team players - the guitar/keyboard/piano(very serious composers/arrangers)/etc..., who also(!) have a lot of ideas about re-harmonizing the song, and sometimes those ideas don't match the bass-players' vision.

Another important point missing from this conversation.
While others are looking for that NOTE with "Wow" attached, I always want to hear that Swing, Groove, microtiming, etc...
Click to expand...

I dont think anyone is trying to say that you shouldn't aim for the best swing and groove you could possibly create. I think this just shows an idea or concept that once you understand it you can try out for yourself. As with anything you compose, it does have to fit into the holistic view of the composition. I believe Adam choose a song just as an example. If he'd just show you a song of where the concept was applied, it would perhaps not be so much of a good example. There are a probably lots of songs where the bass will reharmonize. Look at "how bout us" from champaign. By just playing the key root note under every chord of the progression the bassist is sort of reharmonizing the complete piece with regard to the whole composition.
 
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#129
dnp41 said:
Look at "how bout us" from champaign. By just playing the key root note under every chord of the progression the bassist is sort of reharmonizing the complete piece with regard to the whole composition.
Click to expand...


As Mushroo has said,
"Classical theory textbooks call this technique "pedal point." (I've always used "Organ point".)

Here is what's strange. Way too many beginner bass players are concern with that "What other notes should I play besides the root, the 5th, etc...?"
When I have picked up the bass guitar many decades ago, I have never ever had that kind of question.

Also, way too many beginner bass players tend to misinterpret my comments as,
"You must always play roots only".

Nothing could be further from the truth!

In any case, please(!!!) show me a/any specific example, and we could try to sort out that "reharmonizing" bass-line.

 
#130
dnp41 said:
...
I believe Adam choose a song just as an example. If he'd just show you a song of where the concept was applied, it would perhaps not be so much of a good example.
...
Click to expand...

Yes - very clear examples where the concept jumps out at the student, with no clutter or obfuscation by complexity in the rest of the music.
That Adele song is in my current cover set list so I might just have another listen back...
 
#131
Let's look at some "not-root" bass note cliche examples.

(Bass players discretion is advised.)



A) Play a/any chord notes instead of the root:

Cm(7)/C | C7 (secondary dominant)/E | F |...

A | G/B | A/C# | D |...

Am | C/G | F |...

C (C/B - 4th beat) | F/A (F/B&A - 4th beat) | C/G (C/A&G) | F | C/E | F/D(*) | C...

(*) ii as a functional substitute for IV.

I -->> IV -> V -->> I = I -->> IV(=II) -->> V -->> I
I -> II -->> V -->> I = I -->> (IV=)II -->> V -->> I
ii-SubstituteFor-IV.PNG

From here:
Invalid Link Removed

More about shared functions.
SharedFunctions.PNG


Let's take a look at a well-known "cliche" chord progression:
I - bVI - bVII - I .

The I–bVI–bVII–I model as a remote substitute of the I–IV–V–I.

The bass could play that previously-mentioned "pedal point".
From Ron Kenoly's (praise music) book.

Substitute-2.PNG



Here is a table for more advanced substitutions.

AdvancedSubstitutions.PNG


Here is another interesting article, "Essential Chord Progression" that could be interesting for those who tend to re-harmonize bass-lines.

"Essential Chord movement No. 1: Root movements by fifth.
Essential Chord Movement No. 2: Root movements by third.
Essential Chord Movement No. 3: Root movements by step."

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

and

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
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#133
No!

You need to play whatever serves the music best, and if that happens to be some other chord note than the root or even a note that doesn't belong to the played chord creating is a dissonance that is what you got to do!

Rules in music are not rules in the strict sense that they are to be regarded as laws of nature, they are rather to be seen as guidelines.
 
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#134
NoiseNinja said:
No!

You need to play whatever serves the music best, and if that happens to be some other chord note than the root or even a note that doesn't belong to the played chord creating is a dissonance that is what you got to do!

Rules in music are not rules in the strict sense that they are to be regarded as laws of nature, they are rather to be seen as guidelines.
Click to expand...

Where is the chord root for the following harmonic structures:
Fmaj7/D,
Dm7/Bb,
Fmaj7/G,
Em7/C?
 
#135
Whousedtoplay said:
Where is the chord root for the following harmonic structures:
Fmaj7/D,
Dm7/Bb,
Fmaj7/G,
Em7/C?
Click to expand...

No idea, not really well versed in musical theory.

I think I heard somewhere that the letter after the / is supposed to be an extra added note played in the bass register, so my guess is that the root note in the first example would still be F, although since, as far as I remember, it says it got an additional D in the bass, I guess D could work as well, e.t.c.

I play mostly by ear, so not really the right person to ask such question, and if it was meant as somekind of joke it partly went right over my head.
 
#136
Never had this problem until now.

When playing covers, I just play the line.

Playing originals, I can get creative, and sometimes try to “be the glue” and other times try to add unique dynamics. It’s kinda the bassists role as I see it, to tie the chords and the melody together and sustain the rhythmic foundation.

Now I’m working with a cover/jam band. Lots of Dead, Phish, etc. I’m replacing an existing bassist. Now I’m still feeling my way around some of the songs. Listening to different versions and trying To get my head around them. This is usually easy.

The BL/lead guitarist, however, will stop the song and ask me “what note are you playing?” When this happens in a jammy part, it’s pretty disconcerting. Often, I’m playing with shapes and trying things out.
Maybe there’s a Cmaj happening, and I hit a G. He will say “That should be a C”. By “that” he means the actual note...based on the root of the chord he’s playing.

I go ahead and change what I’m doing. I know it’s probably what he’s used to.

But now the singer is like “No, I like what you’re playing. It sounds better.”

This keeps happening, and it’s starting to throw me. I mean, they auditioned me along with a bunch of others. They should have an idea that I’m competent, and I think they do.

But then, last night, the BL wants to try a different adaptation to a relatively easy song. Jammy section going on...and...”hold on, what more are you playing?” That was a G... “yeah, it’s a C there.” Finally, trying to be cooperative: “You’re playing a Cmaj. I’m playing a G. Or I may play a C. I don’t have to play the root but if you want me to, I can always change it.”

It’s starting to get annoying.
 
#139
Normally, the root is required. Use other chord tones when moving to another chord, especially in the case of playing the third as in C to C/E to F, for instance. The 3rd leads to the 4th. Or Am to Am/C to Dm. Playing, or hanging onto, non-roots too much can confuse other players as well as the harmony. But, inverted chords do have their place for a desired effect. One of my tunes begins with D/F#, but goes immediately to Em7, for instance.
 

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