Do you need to play Roots!?!

[Mushroo]

That's a really good point and absolutely true. And there is more to it than just the choice of lowest note. How that note is executed is often more important than just the pitch class. Take the prelude to Bach Suite 1. In the first major key section (before it goes around the houses), the first note of every other bar is marked Tenuto. It gets more time than the 1/16 might suggest. In the first 2 bars, low note (G) it is Root. In bar 3 it is m3 of an Em chord but still gets the Tenuto to maintain the key centre. Here's a pic of my annotated copy showing how I interpret the Tenuto...

It's interesting for purposes of this discussion to note that, in the first four bars of this example by Bach, the low G played on the downbeat of each measure is not necessarily the root of the chord. In bars 1 and 4, the harmony is G and the low G is indeed the root. But in bar 2, the harmony is C/G with the 5th in the bass. And in bar 3, the harmony is D7/G. Classical theory textbooks call this technique "pedal point."

The answer to the question, do you always need to play the root as the lowest note on the downbeat, would seem to be no, at least in the musical language of Bach.

 

[SteveCS]

It's interesting for purposes of this discussion to note that, in the first four bars of this example by Bach, the low G played on the downbeat of each measure is not necessarily the root of the chord. In bars 1 and 4, the harmony is G and the low G is indeed the root. But in bar 2, the harmony is C/G with the 5th in the bass. And in bar 3, the harmony is D7/G. Classical theory textbooks call this technique "pedal point."

The answer to the question, do you always need to play the root as the lowest note on the downbeat, would seem to be no, at least in the musical language of Bach.

The second chord is indeed C, so we have a I-IV-V in G. I just placed too much store (my bad) on the B (CM7?) in bars 2.
It's odd though, because to the point of the original question, bar 2 sounds like iic, ie Am7/G, with no root. And the D7 (bar 3) also has no root.

Edit... As an aside, I was counting bars in my head from memory when I wrote, then took the pic of the score without checking - duh! I've corrected the bar numbers in my post, but not the harmony error - we're all fallible.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

As a “retired” amateur pop-music bassist, who (after 22-year hiatus of “no-contact” with the bass or Music”) has proudly joined the ranks of the “back-yard-patio-early-morning” bassist community,
I’m happy if I have just one chord and some kind of rhythmic backup.
I’ve found a few soundclips from my “young and energetic” times two years ago, before my laptop crashed.
Just give me one chord, and I (like my dog with a bone) could play a popish bass-line for a long time…
On Studio One I found an effect – some kind of distortion – “RedlightDist”, programmed some drums with “a la rhythm guitar” (played on my Jazz Bass), and started noodling.
The drum fills separate some bass tone/timbre changes and "melodic escapades" (for my own entertainment.)

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=639135052e72b38f0a1abe8f8f0c12b9

Here is another soundclip from my "young days" two years ago. When I posted it here at TB, a very knowledgeable and seriously good bass player, "mambo4" said, "You play too many notes and also your bass-line is fighting with the drums".

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=639135052e72b38f0a1abe8f8f0c12b9

And I've totally accepted mambo4's critique - when you are alone with the bass on the patio early morning, way too many notes pop up in your head; therefore,
I've "weeded out"/chopped quite a few of my bass notes, also, I've transfered some of the notes to the "a la rhythm guitar" (played on Jazz Bass).

I got a nice pop rhythmic pattern.
(N.B. It's only my opinion.)

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=639135052e72b38f0a1abe8f8f0c12b9

P.S. I will remove my trash later.

 

[Jonathan D]

The root can be played by anyone.Somewhere someone is gonna have to make the root heard. You can play all substitutions theoretically and never play the root note but that stuff is for real jazz snobs IMHO. There's very few cats who can seriously play through complex chord structures implying the root but never stating such either as soloists or in smaller groups. Now, I wish I could drop a few names of bassists who are way more on the melodic end of the instrument rather than strictly fundamental players like Jamerson and Rainey but they escape me because I am a Rainey devotee and I am his poorest imitation. But I play to turn people on through how I play a pocket to where everybody can get down. Factually I hate soloing. I am a groove hound because that's what Jamerson and Rainey gave to me -- a love supreme.

"Strictly fundamental players like Jamerson"? I think youʻve been listening to some other dude. The very thing that made Jamerson great, aside from his deep pocket, was his ability to come up with bass lines that werenʻt just root notes-pedaling on D behind a G-chord, for instance, and a lot of genius ways to integrate non-root bass notes into a line to create a counter-melody or a "hook". Jamerson was a jazz player, but he also deeply understood pop, funk and soul, and many of the hits he played on would not have been hits with a less-ingenious bassist.

 

[W.Roberts]

"Strictly fundamental players like Jamerson"? I think youʻve been listening to some other dude. The very thing that made Jamerson great, aside from his deep pocket, was his ability to come up with bass lines that werenʻt just root notes-pedaling on D behind a G-chord, for instance, and a lot of genius ways to integrate non-root bass notes into a line to create a counter-melody or a "hook". Jamerson was a jazz player, but he also deeply understood pop, funk and soul, and many of the hits he played on would not have been hits with a less-ingenious bassist.

And you don't know his pocket enough to dis me on my comment of him being a fundamental player. You're talking about his very few instances of innovating outside of his searing root-5-root pounding rhythms, the essential of Jamerson's music. Transcribe him which must include a study of his work on acoustic bass which are masterpieces of simplicity. That's as fundamental as it gets, dude. Aside from the very few recordings where he ventured into "jazz" in you academia worldview, if you've actually studied him you would know most of his work is fundamental playing on the root and making it known through the world. What you AREN'T listening to is his rhythm playing which defines Jamerson. You know, on hits like "Heard It throught the Grapevine."Go through his entire catalog which includes all his work with the acoustic bass. Then get back with me. You are just some academic snob who I guarantee can't walk Jamerson's walk. I do.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Praise music is a big place for a lot of interesting harmonies, including the bass playing other than the root notes.

N.B. I don't play Praise music! I use the following songs only as examples for this thread only!


From Michael W. Smith - Place in this world.
His music, harmonic/melodic content reminds me the best of Chicago.

I have highlighted chords with the bass playing other than the root/s.

It's a good example of making a bass line more interesting.
The bass guitar starts around 1:20.



Here is another example from Michael W. Smith.

Here is that song:



P.S. As always, I'm ready to delete my post immediately if it's not up to par with our TB members' knowledge, requirements, egos, etc...

 

[inanimate_carb]

Praise music is a big place for a lot of interesting harmonies, including the bass playing other than the root notes.

N.B. I don't play Praise music! I use the following songs only as examples for this thread only!


From Michael W. Smith - Place in this world.
His music, harmonic/melodic content reminds me the best of Chicago.

I have highlighted chords with the bass playing other than the root/s.
View attachment 2749927 View attachment 2749928
View attachment 2749929
It's a good example of making a bass line more interesting.
The bass guitar starts around 1:20.



Here is another example from Michael W. Smith.
View attachment 2749932 View attachment 2749933 View attachment 2749934 View attachment 2749935

Here is that song:



P.S. As always, I'm ready to delete my post immediately if it's not up to par with our TB members' knowledge, requirements, egos, etc...

In those charts, the bass is hitting the roots of inverted chords, which are the original intent of the songwriter.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In those charts, the bass is hitting the roots of inverted chords, which are the original intent of the songwriter.

I am just trying to understand your statement, "... the roots (!) of inverted chords".
How many roots(!) can the C major chord have? 3?

 

[Duanestuermer]

I agree with whousedtoplay, the root of C is C, if you play a G or an F or any other note in the chord, it is not the root.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Speaking of inversions, perhaps this will help:

The notes of the C chord are made of the following notes; C, E & G and if you take that out to a Cmaj7 chord you would add a B. Notice that is every other note in the C major scale. Keep that thought as we go deeper...

Now you can invert those notes all you want, but, the root still stays the same as when you started, i.e. C. The note spelling of C, E, G is unique to a C chord, no matter how you invert it. Keep reading...............

C, E, G Is the notes of the C major chord. OK let's invert them.....
E, G, C Is still the notes of the C major chord. An Em chord would have these notes; E, G, B so E, G, B is not a C chord, it's an Em chord.
G, C, E Is still the notes of the C major chord, the G triad would have the G, B, D notes. So G, B, D is not a C chord, but G, C, E is.

I've given you a link below that will have all the notes in all 12 major keys. Make yourself a chart of all 12. Get everything on one sheet of paper and I think it will make since.

There is only one root per chord or scale. That is normally the first note in the chord or scale, except when the songwriter has inverted the chord. Most good ole boy band bassists do not get off into inverted chords, so relax.

The chords made from the C major scale are:

C major scale notes are C, D, E, F, G, A, B.
Cmaj7 C, E, G, B. Notice it's every other one.
Dm7...D, F, A, C. Start on D and it's every other one. Yes Dm7's root is a D.
Em7...E, G, B, D. Start on E and it's every other one, Yes Em7's root is an E. etc......... That skip a note "thing" opened up a whole new World for me. Skipping notes puts the correct notes in the chord. Minors fall where they should even the diminished chord falls right into place. Read that again.

You kinda need to work this out yourself. Here is a link that helped me make since of all this.

Chords In The Key Of C

http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

Good luck.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I like good Pop music.
I was listening to "Shadows" by Billy Cobham & Gregg Kofi Brown.
The song's easy Intro (a keyboard/piano) chord progression
- Bbmaj7 as (from button up) F - A - Bb - D and
C 6 as G - A - C - E ( 2nd inversion of C 6).
The bass plays G (plus A and Bb) with the Bbmaj7 - normal and with C6 I was expecting C or A, or G, but the bass plays D (plus F, G, and C).
It's like C6/D. After a few measures, I got used to it.

 

[socialleper]

The Sepultura's Roots is a prettt good album. I always preferred Arise.

 

[socialleper]

To give you a more serious answer, you can play however you want. I personally think roots a are little boring. Not that I'm all over the place but I look for places to take the line for a walk, or throw in some arpeggios.
It is your instrument, your art, your choice. There are no rules, no right or wrong. The best music if often made by doing what is "wrong."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

To give you a more serious answer, you can play however you want. I personally think roots a are little boring. Not that I'm all over the place but I look for places to take the line for a walk, or throw in some arpeggios.
It is your instrument, your art, your choice. There are no rules, no right or wrong. The best music if often made by doing what is "wrong."

Your comment sounds like
"It does not matter how you build a house. You can start with the roof on the bottom and finish with the concrete foundation on the top - there are no rules.
Just amazing to hear it from a bass player who needs to build a strong foundation for a/any song/ composition.
Please provide specifics for your no rules claim.

 

[NullPorch]

Your comment sounds like
"It does not matter how you build a house. You can start with the roof on the bottom and finish with the concrete foundation on the top - there are no rules.
Just amazing to hear it from a bass player who needs to build a strong foundation for a/any song/ composition.
Please provide specifics for your no rules claim.

This morning I re-listened to Sepultura's Roots (it's too heavy for me) and here is my conclusion.
It's one of the best examples of the bass emphasizing/accentuating the Roots(!).
I truly believe that a lot of TB talkers do not understand this thread's question about where, when, how, etc..., to play the root/s. I think a lot of talkers need to know the role of the bass guitar in the band, the bass harmonic/rhythmic duties, and music theory/harmony overall.

Wow, you would hate the way I play. The role of bass is to play the low-range counterpoint to the melody (generally speaking). That means sometimes playing the root for that powerful resolution, but not always and rarely for an entire song (or even measure). Personally, I tend to include the root somewhere at each change, but I rarely sit on it unless I'm holding down the song while my guitarist solos. Though I usually play the whole chord during that, and oftentimes I use various inversions to get the nicest tone and avoid sounding muddy. Point is, the bass guitar is a musical tool that you are limited by your musical creativity in using. Even considering the bass as a role that needs filled, to imply it must ride the root of reach chord for the whole song always is an over-simplification of the bass role in music.

 

[buldog5151bass]

Do you have to pound the root for every chord change? No. But a big part of what you do, especially in jazz, is to outline the change ( and rock tends to be less subtle, and therefore, more roots). The root is the most direct way to do it.

 

[buldog5151bass]

And you don't know his pocket enough to dis me on my comment of him being a fundamental player. You're talking about his very few instances of innovating outside of his searing root-5-root pounding rhythms, the essential of Jamerson's music. Transcribe him which must include a study of his work on acoustic bass which are masterpieces of simplicity. That's as fundamental as it gets, dude. Aside from the very few recordings where he ventured into "jazz" in you academia worldview, if you've actually studied him you would know most of his work is fundamental playing on the root and making it known through the world. What you AREN'T listening to is his rhythm playing which defines Jamerson. You know, on hits like "Heard It throught the Grapevine."Go through his entire catalog which includes all his work with the acoustic bass. Then get back with me. You are just some academic snob who I guarantee can't walk Jamerson's walk. I do.

His early stuff was melodically simple, because the music was simple. But his later lines were melodically and rhythmically complex, and he used his jazz background to stray a LONG way from pounding roots.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I truly believe that a/any bass player must learn about Strong and Weak beats (Downbeat/Upbeat/On-beat/off-beat/backbeat) of each measure/bar.
Next.
It's a good idea for a/any bass player to learn about the Decoupling of the melody from the accompaniment in pop/rock/soul, etc... - Easy Listening - music.
A/Any bass player should learn the fundamentals of this/that music style, its requirements, etc...
If it's Tom Petty - the bass player should know what and how to play.



If it's a good pop song, play like Jeff Berlin does.


If you got a gig to substitute Hadrien Feraud, listen to his vision of "easy music".

 

[NullPorch]

Okay, but what if you're not trying to just be a derivative of someone else? I do agree that it's important to be a versatile player and capable of doing a job if you are given one, but a lot of bass players are also musicians and artists who want to innovate, experiment, and express ourselves.

To those players I would say learn the necessary theory that is the building blocks and fundamental rules of how music works, and then do anything and everything you can think of within that until you find a sound that works for you.

I built my playing style from a mix of jamming alone with a drummer, meaning I was responsible for filling all sonic space and roles musically, and then jamming in a trio with one guitarist meaning there are times where I need to able to dial back and lay down a solid bass line but still be ready to cover chords/harmony along with some sort of bass part when they solo. Plus, I cut my teeth as a musician on classical and folk (like vocal polyphony, not country/bluegrass) meaning my ear hears a moving bass counterpoint for any melody and harmony, or, on the other end of the spectrum, very drone-based music that will have a solid fundamental pitch with subtle changes over the top of that.

I need to know theory to stay in key, and to help me figure out how to build or play within chords, but that's about it. I don't worry about if I'm playing a good pop, or funk, or blues bass line according to the rules and standards of those genres. I just feel out what I want to play and hear.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I don't worry about if I'm playing a good pop, or funk, or blues bass line according to the rules and standards of those genres. I just feel out what I want to play and hear.

Let's say, you need to record a bass-line for the following group, and the song has SOOOOO much space.
Would you try to fill it with a lot of bass notes?
A beautiful song.