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Does a reverse headstock tighten up the low end?

#102
Hawkbone said:
Routing the string around another tuner like that WILL increase tension due to the capstan effect (adding friction).
Click to expand...

...which needs to be counteracted by detuning as it would raise the pitch of the string, thereby completely negating all added tension.
 
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#104
SteveCS said:
OK, I've read a lot of this thread and I think I might have had a change of mind (but not on the Fodera headstock!)

So I think we know that

1) For a given Saddle to Nut (Scale) Length, the STATIC tension required for any given string to sound a given pitch is CONSTANT.

2) The force required to bend a given string by a given INTERVAL, say a whole tone, is CONSTANT

3) The force required to bend a string a given DISTANCE , regardless of the change in PITCH, goes DOWN as the BALL to PEG LENGTH goes up. The CAPO test proves this.

4) From 2) and 3) we can say that the PITCH CHANGE for a given BEND DISTANCE goes DOWN as the BALL to PEG LENGTH goes up OR 'It is easier to bend a Minor 3rd on a lock-nut hard tail than on a stock Strat'.

Now the logic (hopefully);

1) GIVEN that, regardless of scale length, a string with longer BALL to PEG LENGTH is easier to bend with the fingers than a shorter string, we might PROPOSE that such a string might also require less energy/work to set in motion at a given AMPLITUDE (or volume).

2) IF, for such a string, the energy required to create a GIVEN amplitude is less, then a GIVEN amount of energy will create MORE AMPLITUDE compared to a shorter string.

3) IF, for such a string, the change in pitch for a given excursion is LESS, then the deviation from pitch in the initial attack of the note will be LESS, which could be interpreted as greater tuning stability or better intonation.

We might also propose that;

1) IF the energy required to start the string vibrating is LESS, then the ATTACK TIME MIGHT BE SHORTER. If so, this MIGHT present as a 'punchier' sounding attack and an overall louder note. The string itself might also be perceived by the player as more responsive.

2) IF the energy required to maintain a given amplitude is REDUCED, then the energy in the string MIGHT BE CONSERVED FOR LONGER and dissipated more slowly. If so, this MIGHT present as LONGER SUSTAIN.

If, by some definition, a PUNCHIER ATTACK with LONGER SUSTAIN and BETTER INTONATION is the same as 'TIGHTER', then YES, an extended B at the headstock might well provide this. Equally, if this thinking is correct (and it might not be), the same might be achieved by having a longer Ball to Saddle distance a-la ALEMBIC, or by stringing through the body...
Click to expand...

This is somewhat in line with what I was getting at in my earlier post, and is in line with my own experience. The effect of a reverse headstock on the feel of the strings is noticeable, certainly to me, and to some others.
 
#105
TyBo said:
This is somewhat in line with what I was getting at in my earlier post, and is in line with my own experience. The effect of a reverse headstock on the feel of the strings is noticeable, certainly to me, and to some others.
Click to expand...

Actually it was your post that got me thinking more about the question - realising that whilst in a static condition there is no difference in tension but that when the string is actually being sounded and dynamics are involved, things might be different and there might be other factors at work, so thanks for the prompt. :-) But nothing will change my mind on that Fodera headstock.
 
#108
Happynoj said:
No it doesn't. It demonstrates that if you apply the same tension to something with different distances between the force and the object, the tension will be the same. If you hung the fish from 2ft of line and you hung it from 5 ft of line and then plucked the line, the pitches of the resulting note would be different. To make the 5ft line sound the same pitch as the 2ft line you would need a much heavier fish (i.e. more tension).
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As it applies to the OP----- the tuning length is between the nut and bridge (scale length) the tension length is end to end.



Angus has it correct in his next post.
 
#109
Slevage said:
As it applies to the OP----- the tuning length is between the nut and bridge (scale length) the tension length is end to end.
Click to expand...

Yep. But the tuned length of string stays the same length, so assuming that you keep the string gauge the same, the tension required to keep the tuned length of string at pitch is the same. The only thing that will change is the pitch of the string behind the nut. If you took your fish with the 2ft and 5ft lines and put a break in the line 1ft from the fish, like the string going over the nut, the plucked pitch of the line between the fish and the break will remain the same, regardless of the length of line on the other side of the break. If the line on the other side made a difference then the plucked pitch of the line between the fish and the break would lower. I'm pretty certain that this would not be the case.
 
#110
Happynoj said:
Yep. But the tuned length of string stays the same length, so assuming that you keep the string gauge the same, the tension required to keep the tuned length of string at pitch is the same. The only thing that will change is the pitch of the string behind the nut. If you took your fish with the 2ft and 5ft lines and put a break in the line 1ft from the fish, like the string going over the nut, the plucked pitch of the line between the fish and the break will remain the same, regardless of the length of line on the other side of the break. If the line on the other side made a difference then the plucked pitch of the line between the fish and the break would lower. I'm pretty certain that this would not be the case.
Click to expand...

I agree 100%. So, having long lengths of string after the witness points (bridge and nut) does not change the tension of the string from the player's point of view---- I think that's what the OP was asking.
 
#112
Slevage said:
I agree 100%. So, having long lengths of string after the witness points (bridge and nut) does not change the tension of the string from the player's point of view---- I think that's what the OP was asking.
Click to expand...
Indeed, in a steady state that is true, but we are talking about a dynamic condition.

We know that the force required to displace (bend) the string from straight reduces as the nut-peg length and the 'after-length' increase. We also know that a given displacement from straight results in less pitch change when these lengths are increased. Given that a standing wave is a series of microscopic displacements from the centre line, the energy required to set the string going at a given amplitude must also be lower and the sharpening effect of a strong attack must also be reduced when the peg-nut distance and 'after-lengths' are longer...
 
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#114
SteveCS said:
Indeed, in a steady state that is true, but we are talking about a dynamic condition.

We know that the force required to displace (bend) the string from straight reduces as the nut-peg length and the 'after-length' increase. We also know that a given displacement from straight results in less pitch change when these lengths are increased. Given that a standing wave is a series of microscopic displacements from the centre line, the energy required to set the string going at a given amplitude must also be lower and the sharpening effect of a strong attack must also be reduced when the peg-nut distance and 'after-lengths' are longer...
Click to expand...
That's why my 3/4 scale, EUB doesn't warble horribly out of tune when I play an open string or 1st position note---- there's lots of string length Between the bridge and tail piece.( scale is over 41 inches).
 
#119
I'll just throw this one in . . .
From another thread about the scroll bass
AEB1

(from the page)

"The tailpiece on these instruments hangs about an inch off the back end of the body on two steel posts, and the extra length between the bridge and tailpiece requires special strings that are about 3" longer than standard Fender length. This was done partly to get the necessary string angle over the mystery pickup, and also the extra string length allows the strings to stretch more, so they can be plucked harder like an upright bass."

This will effect the "attack" of the sound right?

Carry on . . .
 
#120
Flaked Beans said:
But it works, it really works man! That gnarly .110 "B" string (combined with those crappy .25-.40-.06-.75-.95 cheapo roundwounds) feels pretty tight for a detuned E string!
:cool:
:laugh::D

This lame soundclip below proves OP's theory as well! :D

Playing Pedulla Slap by flaked beans - picosong

:beaver:
Click to expand...

What are you saying really works? If you mean attaching the string to a different string post, as we pointed out repeatedly in this thread, that is not adding any tension or tightness whatsoever; that's not a matter of conflicting opinions here either- it's actually scientifically proven.
 

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