Does anybody else dislike Neo speakers?

[MikeBass]

The resonance (Fs) of a driver is determined by its moving parts and voice coil, not the frame or magnet material. There are some two dozen factors that determine the performance of a driver, magnetic flux is one, magnet material is not.
So have I, on a regular basis. I've also been involved in the development of some of their drivers. It's not a matter of them not wanting to make a Neo driver that sounds the same as ceramic, it's a matter of wanting to take advantage of the improvements that Neo allows, to make drivers that work better than the ceramics that they replace.
That said, the original Deltalite line was lacking; frankly, they rushed them into production and didn't get it right. But the Deltalite IIs got it right, and the Kappalites got it even righter. IMO they are the best pro-sound drivers available within their price range, or even close to it.

I was directly told that they would not make a neo version of a ceramic for the reasons I stated.
Again, as I was told, people still hear with their eyes, so they still make stamped frame ceramic speakers.
If you would like to speak for the company, please do so, I was just stating what I was told.
I worked with a custom cab builder and worked with Eminance on a proprietary 8" neo driver (that never came to fruition sadly).
This was a few years ago and maybe their design philosophy has changed.

Maybe over time the general population of musicians will just get what sounds good first (to them- subjective), then worry about what it's made of.

 

[agedhorse]

Agedhorse, thank you for your insight as well. When you mentioned different motor geometry, are you guys (or any OEM in the pro audio world) using XBL^2 motors? I know that those designs are starting to pour into the home and car market.

We are not and I am not aware of any others either. Their design is covered under US patent, I'm sure there are some licencees out there.

 

[Shiveringbass]

IMO there can be a difference. Depends on a lot of factors.

There is a sound difference, despite what anyone says, whether it's good or bad is down to other factors of the cab.

The Berg neos I tried next to the ceramic definitely had a mid aggression.

Tecamp got it right with there cabs!
QUOTE]

The Tecamp M212 is to my ears very upper mid present, bright, and quite agressive... something generaly attributed to neo speakers...


On the other hand, the Epi UL112 2 I've tried sounded absolutly smooth and very pleasent to my ears.


So IMHO, it is quite difficult to make a general rule on neo magnet...

The only thing I've learnt is never buy a speaker without listening it, never. TB is full of opinion but only your ears can juge if something is pleasing to you or not.

 

[David Jayne]

I'll say it again: trying to hear a difference between a Goliath and a Golight is a waste of time.
The SWR neo and ceramic cabs have identical dimensions and volumes, so SWR obviously designed the neo drivers for the Golight's to work with the old cab design. Simple.
Maybe SWR is just better at this game than everybody else???
Dunno, but I cannot imagine dragging out my Goliaths ever again, frankly. The Golight's are THAT good, provided you like THAT sound.
Not a shill for SWR, just telling it like it is.

 

[will33]

Completely useless generalization. Nothing about neos makes them inherently sound a certain way. TS specs determine what it sounds like, and the neo magnet mostly affects the magnet strength parameter IIRC.

This^

Yes they use a different magnet and yes they do sound a little different sometimes but that doesn't mean it's the magnet that's making them sound different.

Being able to use a magnet that's many times lighter than the previous ones allows changes to be made in the structure like not needing a cast frame. Also when they re-designed these speakers, they didn't just take the same speaker and put a lighter magnet on it, the reduction in weight allowed them to make more changes that have nothing to do with the magnet.

Some of it has to do with technological advances in other areas of the speaker too. My local speaker guy here says it's not so much how much magnetism it can produce but how much of that can be focused in the gap. I'm not sure how you can focus a magnetic field but maybe you can, or might be full of it, who knows.

The guys at GenzBenz tweak with different dustcap materials and thicknesses that are super fine tolerances but make a difference in mid response.

A lot of it has to do with the inherent freq. response and what it can reproduce in terms of eq boosts and cuts. And yes, as with anything new, you have to "wear the new off" before you know what it's going to be like a year from now, 5years, 10 years, etc.

I've heard more than a few "vintage" amps that after a complete to spec rebuild or a clone job with "better" parts didn't sound as good as they used to just because the "drift" in part values over the years just happened to happen in a musically good way.

 

[will33]

Maybe over time the general population of musicians will just get what sounds good first (to them- subjective), then worry about what it's made of.

I model and glue and screw my own stuff for many reasons, mostly because I like it and I can get what I want without having to worry about whether or not 1000 other people are going to buy it. What the magnet is made of or whether it weighs 5 pounds more or less is meaningless. I play a bass, not a flute. Although I did play clarinet and still have one and it weighs the same as it did then and still sound just as good. As far as I know, there aren't any neo clarinets.

 

[will33]

here we go again....

I CAN hear a common sound characteristic in ALL the neo's I've tried...trying to describe it is difficult.

I think the magnet makes them make the basket lighter, which makes them make the cones differently, then the cab, all resulting in crappy, too-scooped sound.

Cheers,
Cameron

Wierd, I haven't heard that. If anything, if you want to generalize, most neos either have more mid response or respond higher up into the uppermids than older speakers. That's too general to make any sense but here we are. More upper response will make them sound shy in the bass by comparison. If you compare a neo to something that's strong in the lows but rolls off by 2k then of course the neo won't sound as warm. If anything the common eminence neo's or OEM versions there of have more mid response than older stuff. That can be good or bad depending on your taste. They definately don't sound anything like an old metal dustcap 15 where it actually sounds like a big woof cone making bass/lowmids and a metal piece making treble with nothing in between.

 

[engedi1]

Question for those more knowledgable than I. If there is no difference between Neo's and Ceramic drivers, and Neos are lighter, then why haven't ALL manufacturers started using them. I mean, if I could get the Aguilar 4x12 cab that is my fav cab of all time, and it would weigh 100 lb's lighter than the current ceramic design, i would buy it in a heartbeat. It seems to me that there must be some inherent value to ceramic magnets, not just nostalgia, or everybody would have started using them. Right? Or is there nothing to this line of reasoning?

 

[will33]

There's 20 or 30 different specs in a speaker, the magnet material is 1 of them and not an important one unless weight is a major concern to you. The sound difference lies in the 19-29 other details, not what the magnet is made of. Tone is a very subjective thing. If there was one "best" speaker there would only be one speaker company and we would all buy that one........monopoly anyone?

 

[Fuzzbass]

The resonance (Fs) of a driver is determined by its moving parts and voice coil, not the frame or magnet material. There are some two dozen factors that determine the performance of a driver, magnetic flux is one, magnet material is not.

So, magnetic flux determines the performance of a driver. Would flux differ between neo and heavier types? That is, even if magnetic strength were equal, magnets of different material would likely (I'm guessing) have different volume/geometry, and couldn't that result in a difference in flux and therefore performance?

 

[Fuzzbass]

Maybe over time the general population of musicians will just get what sounds good first (to them- subjective), then worry about what it's made of.

For the record, I bought some neo speaker cabs (Epifani S1) and didn't like them, but I never believed this had anything to do with magnet material. My question just above is out of curiosity, not skepticism.

 

[seamonkey]

Ceramics are easy to mold, cheap to make, easy to magnetize, cheaper than alnico,
Ceramics are used when they don't need to save weight, or go with a new design, or don't want to retool.
Expect shipping cost to steadily rise and saving weight to be even more of an issue.

The good news is most advanced speakers Ever made are Neo speakers. Neo's are saving the day.

 

[will33]

The good news is most advanced speakers Ever made are Neo speakers. Neo's are saving the day.

Depends on environazi's piling more reg's, material availability, relations with countries that have those materials, etc. Lot more goes into this than just, "oh, that's better, let's use that". The stuff has to come from somewhere.

 

[Rafael]

Question for those more knowledgable than I. If there is no difference between Neo's and Ceramic drivers, and Neos are lighter, then why haven't ALL manufacturers started using them.

One word: Cost.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So, magnetic flux determines the performance of a driver. Would flux differ between neo and heavier types? That is, even if magnetic strength were equal, magnets of different material would likely (I'm guessing) have different volume/geometry, and couldn't that result in a difference in flux and therefore performance?

Yes. But where flux is concerned there comes a point of diminishing returns, and that point can be reached with even Alnico, let alone ceramic or neo. Neo isn't used to provide higher flux than was previously achieved, it's used to reach those same levels with less weight.

 

[Musicman20]

Question for those more knowledgable than I. If there is no difference between Neo's and Ceramic drivers, and Neos are lighter, then why haven't ALL manufacturers started using them. I mean, if I could get the Aguilar 4x12 cab that is my fav cab of all time, and it would weigh 100 lb's lighter than the current ceramic design, i would buy it in a heartbeat. It seems to me that there must be some inherent value to ceramic magnets, not just nostalgia, or everybody would have started using them. Right? Or is there nothing to this line of reasoning?

I completely agree, and I think Aguilar use ceramic for more of a reason than just cost. Look at the Berg AE price VS the HT pricing on the 112s....in the UK the price difference is MINIMAL.

At the moment, until Aguilar come out with something thats as good as their ceramic loaded cabinets, Im happy where I am with their DB series. If they dont, Im not bothered. Weight isnt everything, especially when you are only saving 20lbs or so in a 4x10. Its STILL heavy no matter what!

 

[Musicman20]

Oh , and I think the best compromise is size. Weight isnt a massive issue if you have a lightweight amp head. The cab lift is always with two people with me, unless Im moving a 2x10 from room to room.

TC nailed the best size/weight /tone ratio so far with their pricepoint. Their 2x10s/2x12s with ceramic drivers sound fantastic.

 

[Jaco who?]

As far as "why aren't all new cabs neo's?" I think cost is a factor, but if a cab is selling like hotcakes, manufacturers will be reluctant to spend the R&D for a neo with totally new parameters just to have everyone who believes there is a difference in tone (whether there is or not) thumb their noses at it and go buy something from a competitor.

Personally, I'll take a big, lightweight box that sounds decent over a small heavy one that sacrifices tone for a smaller size. But that's just me, my opinion, it has no basis in fact, and the sun will still rise tomorrow if you don't agree with it.

 

["Q"]

I guess the root question here is: Are magnets permeable? Pole pieces are and they have benefited from treatments to deal with it. Why should magnet material be exempt from this?

Also I'm enjoying the "semi-consensus" in this thread that neos sound the same as ceramics but yet, "are way better".

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I completely agree, and I think Aguilar use ceramic for more of a reason than just cost. Look at the Berg AE price VS the HT pricing on the 112s....in the UK the price difference is MINIMAL.

That's at retail. At the price manufacturers pay the difference between ceramic and neo is substantial. If they paid the same for neo, or even within 10%, ceramics would disappear in a heartbeat.