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Does anybody really need more than 500 watts?

#62
The amplifier I use is a Class D power amp driven by a tube preamp I designed and built to drive it. My speaker cabinets are a pair of Acme Low B 2x10 three way. They handle a low B with ease. They are 4Ω and I stack them on their ends for a vertical 4x10. each cab is driven by separate channel on the amp. They push ~ 500W into each cab. I never get loud enough to reach the Acme's limits.
 
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#64
Joe Nerve said:
Not sayin ya don't, but wondering.

I currently have a 700 watt Carvin that I love, but no longer trust. I'm considering replacing it with one of these 500 watters...

View attachment 4032359

...but wondering if I'll ever need more wattage.

In my experience all that's ever necessary in any band/gig situation is enough volume to get a comfortable mix on stage. Anything louder than that is going through the house anyhow.

SO... does anyone here feel they really need more than 500 watts, and if so, please convince me. I am open to dropping $150 more for the higher watt version. I just think right now its might very well just be a waste.
Click to expand...
WOW, what loaded question! I have been on the wrong end of having too little amp AND cab for the job ('66 blackface, 50-watt Fender Bassman with 212 cab). Happened when I first started touring in 1971. Just got buried by keys and guitar. Ended up buying an amp 4 times as powerful with a 215 cab and never turned up indoors past #3 on the dial without being told to "please turn down". Outdoor, wide open spaces, I could turn it up to #5. That was a 200-watt Standel amp that was an amazing piece of gear.

Since 2010, I've run an Eden WT500/800 (WT500 upgraded to 800-watts bridged). I run it bridged at 800-watts into either my DNS-210 (handles 700-watts rms) or my DNS-410 (handles 1400-watts). I use the 210 for all indoor venues and the 410 for outdoors and outdoor Festivals. The 210 has a max SPL of 134db and the 410 will push out 137db "if" you use the DNA-1350 amp (1350-watts) to drive it. It's more than enough for anywhere.

I run my 800-watt amp into my DNS-210 with the master set anywhere from 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock indoors depending upon the size of the venue. I run the master at 9:30 to 10 o'clock outdoors into my DNS-410. I have snuck it up a hair over 10 o'clock a couple of times into my 410 at festivals, but if I run it up to 10:30 at festivals, I get told to turn down. I stacked them together once when I first got the 210 because I wasn't sure it would handle the room. If it didn't, I could quickly unplug the 210 and plug the 410 in. The 210 was more than enough, so I use if for all my indoor venues now.

Could I get buy with a 500-watt amp with the cabs I have? - sure! I'd be surprised if I'm putting anywhere close to 500 watts into either of those cabs. I had my WT500/800 in the shop a couple of years ago and used my 400-watt (into 4 ohms) amp to drive my 410. Since it is an 8 ohm cab, that amp was only putting out 280-watts. Playing indoor venues for the two months I waited for it get back from the shop was no problem. So odds are that the 500-watt amp would do the trick.

HOWEVER, one of the nice things about running an 800 watt amp, where you might don't really need that much power, is that you are not pushing the amp near its limits and the amp runs pretty darn cool. That means more longevity and better reliability, plus being secure in the knowledge that if you need more than 500-watts, it's there with a simple twist of the master volume.

Now a huge variable with how far you can go with a 500-watt amp is "what cab(s) you are running with it". I used to use an acoustic B410 + GK115bpx stack and it was no where near as loud as my single DNS-410 (nor does it sound as good). Neither of those cabs is particularly sensitive, meaning it takes considerably more power to get them to gig levels than it does with either of my DNA cabs. My DNS-210 cab by itself is actually much louder than that stack was and the sound quality is far better too. But these cabs are a bit unusual. They have high sensitivity, high power handling, and absurdly loud Maximum SPL.

So keep in mind the sensitivity of the speakers you are using with your amp. In my opinion, I absolutely would continue to use an 800-watt amp. It gives me the sound I want; the reliability from not stressing out an amp to its max all the time; and the confidence that if I need more power, I've got it. Speaking from experience, I can tell you the last thing you want to experience is having your band to ask you to turn up and you can't. Happened to me once in 1971 and I vowed "never again"...I learned my lesson.

Below is a shot of my set-up where I actual had the 210 on top of the 410 but only had the 210 plugged in. I had to move the amp over to my left quite a bit more after playing a couple of songs because I was too close to the 210's speakers and it was killing my ears. Ended up moving it to my left and forward a bit to get out of the 60° dispersion pattern of those speakers.

414353570.jpg
 
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#69
Headroom allows transients without distortion so project your technique accurately. I want it all. The ability to have it get edge when I dig in and bloom with big bombastic clarity when I want that. Sometimes that's watts. More often it's design of the significant components. It's also the selection of complimentary parts that work seamlessly together. So watts by themselves are not the holy grail.

When too much watts makes for not being in scale with the music it's as much a problem as showing up with 40w with bashing drums and wailing guitar amps. Playing an Acoustic 360 in a basement with singer songwriters is useless as you never get any edge. Boy what I wouldn't have given for a spry combo for a lot of settings I found myself in in the old days. Now a 160w BBII is perfect in a lot of settings. I still love 1000w. Doesn't mean I'm loud at all.
 
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#70
No. Because 500 watts sounds like butt. No matter how good of a preamp you use. Trying to utilize 500+ watts of solid state power just turns into mush. While only 200-300 watts of tube power starts to overdrive and give you nice harmonics and sustain.
 
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#71
I started with a Little Mark 3 (500 Watts) and a 410 HF 4 ohm Markbass cab.
Over time I found myself pushing the amp more and more in rehearsals and during gigs. I began getting the feeling that I might at some point lack some power while I need my sound to stay clean at all times, even at high volumes.

That's the reason why I sold my LM3 and bought myself the similar sounding 1000-Watt Little Marks Ninja. It has unbelievable headroom, stays clean at all times and above all gives me the confidence I needed as a bass player to know I can get as loud as I want to and woud never get buried by keys or guitars.

So bottom line for me personally it's mostly a psychological thing and about feeling comfortable with the level of power and loudness you have at yourself disposal.
 
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#73
I occasionally come across a job (sadly, maybe i dont have the same cherry gigs as yall) where there is an issue with the house pa, and they wanna push bass off of my cab to save pa power. Being able to project has helped me a few times. Oh wait, thats a function of the cab. Ive never been dimed on an amp head in my life.
 
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#74
Are you playing in an aggressive metal band doing battle with 3 mesa triple rectifiers and a drummer who wields baseball bats for sticks?:hyper:
Does your tone make Bill Laswell blush?:bored:
If not, 500 is plenty.:D
If your tone is super scooped, bottom heavy, or you're in a very loud band environment, and/or without the proper cab scenario... 500 might not be quite enough depending on the brand of class D you're looking at.

In the lightweight Class D head department, IMHO, the Mesa D800+ is the win, and I am totally that Ampeg snob guy.
:eek:Mesa got me looking:cool:
 
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#75
drumvsbass said:
Are you playing in an aggressive metal band doing battle with 3 mesa triple rectifiers and a drummer who wields baseball bats for sticks?:hyper:
Does your tone make Bill Laswell blush?:bored:
If not, 500 is plenty.:D
If your tone is super scooped, bottom heavy, or you're in a very loud band environment, and/or without the proper cab scenario... 500 might not be quite enough depending on the brand of class D you're looking at.

In the lightweight Class D head department, IMHO, the Mesa D800+ is the win, and I am totally that Ampeg snob guy.
:eek:Mesa got me looking:cool:
Click to expand...
Almost didn't go buy the SVT-II Pro I just got, then our bass player's M6 Carbine took a dump so I felt compelled to put a reliable, but slight lower power, tube head on our backline cab instead of something ultra portable or powerful. As for the D800+, damn those things can cut but every bass player I've played in bands with that uses them sets their tone to just be horrible, but I guess that's cool when you're playing 90's hardcore?
 
#76
waltdogg said:
Almost didn't go buy the SVT-II Pro I just got, then our bass player's M6 Carbine took a dump so I felt compelled to put a reliable, but slight lower power, tube head on our backline cab instead of something ultra portable or powerful. As for the D800+, damn those things can cut but every bass player I've played in bands with that uses them sets their tone to just be horrible, but I guess that's cool when you're playing 90's hardcore?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately brands do not control their consumers tastes in tone. Seen many Ampeg that sound like ass as well. Probably most guys get a little too happy with the hi pass filter. Bass is supposed to have bass. The II pro is a beast of head. If that won't do the gig nothing will.
 
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#79
Joe Nerve said:
Not sayin ya don't, but wondering.

I currently have a 700 watt Carvin that I love, but no longer trust. I'm considering replacing it with one of these 500 watters...

View attachment 4032359

...but wondering if I'll ever need more wattage.

In my experience all that's ever necessary in any band/gig situation is enough volume to get a comfortable mix on stage. Anything louder than that is going through the house anyhow.

SO... does anyone here feel they really need more than 500 watts, and if so, please convince me. I am open to dropping $150 more for the higher watt version. I just think right now its might very well just be a waste.
Click to expand...
Just out of curiosity what is your Carvin head doing? I had a 500 watt Carvin head that periodically wouldn’t work.
To answer your original question though; I tend to think that if your stage volume requires more than 500 watts the potential for problems with the sound of the band increases and it becomes increasingly difficult to control
 
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#80
Joe Nerve said:
Not sayin ya don't, but wondering.

I currently have a 700 watt Carvin that I love, but no longer trust. I'm considering replacing it with one of these 500 watters...

View attachment 4032359

...but wondering if I'll ever need more wattage.

In my experience all that's ever necessary in any band/gig situation is enough volume to get a comfortable mix on stage. Anything louder than that is going through the house anyhow.

SO... does anyone here feel they really need more than 500 watts, and if so, please convince me. I am open to dropping $150 more for the higher watt version. I just think right now its might very well just be a waste.
Click to expand...
Headroom. :)
 
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