Does class D have the Heft of SS

[JimiLL]

Those being power amps did you match the gain?

eh - it doesn't matter - you could be in that 99 percentile that can hear things others can't.
It just so happens that there are many 99 percentile around here
Some shold be using their abilities for the betterment of power amplifiers in the world.

Here we go with the questioning of intelligence again

Yes it was gain matched. Used the same pre amp. Even hit the clip light on the crest .

Get over it

 

[AE1]

Just a quick question:

Which Class D amps have you gigged?

So, it might help to describe some of your Class D experience on the gig; and talk about what worked and what didn't.

None as yet - no need

Have stable of Class AB and H amps which all do the job for me

My bass only has four strings so I do not need any more to make good music

But I do know professional PA guys who tell me they can't get comparable LF bass from amps with switch-mode power supplies compared with traditional amps, so difference can be different.

[QUOTE="Part of the problematic part of this discussion is that everyone isn't dealing with the same data set.[/QUOTE]

That was my point

We are also dealing with different objectives.

As an old school hobbyist I can do what I want, use recycled components, drill holes in the chassis and instal extra bits, but commercial designers are burdened by standards, regulations, warranties, product liablity, cost issues and fashion/style

"You are engaged in a theoretical discussion with @agedhorse; but, you also have stated, quite correctly, that the proof is in the actual performance. In fact, that is NOT at all at odds with scientific work. I worked in R&D for 35+ years; and our saying was "theory guides, data decides." Nothing at all incorrect with doing controlled experiments and drawing conclusions based on empirical results. We do it all the time. You don't need a BS degree to do it. Your experience is legit evidence; but, you also need to be aware of the limitations.[/I]

Sure am aware of the limitations of DIY experimentations. Many have been electrocuted in that quest.

Scientists did not discover the world was not flat until they did not fall off the edge. After that they tried to figure out why it was not flat as they had previously thought. Based on empirical trial and error they were then able to develop verifiable scientific theories

It would be a dull world if the only thinkers were engineers

I did not seek to engage in a scientific discussion - just add in my own limited knowledge - but unfortunately that stimulated a hostile response

"Every player has different gigs and different sound needs. Cats have preferences, even between different tube amps, for example. In my case, I have actually put Class D next to the SVT and done gigs with both. IME, you can get excellent results with well designed Class D; but, drawing conclusions from, say a Behringer (not to pick on them) design, is not broadly applicable to the more carefully designed Class D amps.[/I]

What I think you are saying is that excellent results are obtainable from all classes of amp. That is a reasonable statement
and has been supported by many contributors. I would not disagree.

But browsing through the specs it seems some manufacturers do not disclose the class of operation so the buyer still has to make a subjective choice based upon parameters other than class

"Each to their own; but, we should avoid implying that cats are lesser players because they choose a different kind of amplification system. That is simply not the case. And, making generalizations about a Class of amps without broad empirical experience is also questionable.

For example, "I tried the Behringer and it was deficient, therefore all the other Class D amps, such as Bergantino, Demeter, Mesa, Genzler, Quilter etc are deficient," is also not sound logic.

Just saying'.[/I]

I wholly agree with that. I did not claim Class D was no good nor did I post the above quotes. Someone else said that.

But it is a reality that if someone tries something new and it does not perform as expected then they will most likely revert to what they know and like. That comes across in some of the posts.

Thanks for your rational response

 

[agedhorse]

please let me know if you ever drag amps to the dump again!!!! LOL

Hey, I got about 15 cents per pound.

 

[seamonkey]

Here we go with the questioning of intelligence again

Yes it was gain matched. Used the same pre amp. Even hit the clip light on the crest .

Get over it

Oh no - Intelligence can't be so easily measured
Many animals that people may think are not so intelligent can be shown to hear better than humans. Good thing we're smart enough to use animals to fill in for our lack of senses.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Refresher:

Does class D have the Heft of SS?

 

[JimmyM]

I have friends who regaled me with how awesome Crest CA9 power amps sounded and that they didn't care about the weight. I tried their rigs and the amps sounded fine... but they didn't blow me away as much as they said they would. I had an Aguilar DB750 and it equaled my rack setup fingerstyle but came up short for more percussive work. I had a 70's SVT rig that, while it worked fine, it wasn't for me and sound was more of a factor than weight. The engineers I know are mostly the same way... if they got demonstrably better sound with heavier amps they'd break them up in more racks for portability's sake and keep it moving.

So if I could find an SVT the size of my Quilter... I'd still use my Quilter. I tried my rack and Quilter on the same gig... the rack didn't sound better. Dead man walking .

I'd be willing to carry around bigger gear if it really made the clouds part. But that's what my liddle' stuff does.

The one thing I've not been able to do is a listening test with two top-quality power amps of different topologies. Everyone says that's the real test, but since I don't use power amps or need to buy PA, I never bothered. I do have a friend who might could spot me a couple for a couple nights, though. I should hit him up.

 

[AE1]

Refresher:

Does class D have the Heft of SS?

This was the original question

Thanks for getting us all back on track

Unfortunately there is no technical specification for "heft" so until one is developed we will never know

But if you browse some of the manufacturer websites or do a search for Class D amplifiers you will find their current Class D products are the best amps ever produced since the vacuum tube was invented. They all can't be wrong.

Check out this explanation of comparative classes:
Invalid Link Removed

It has already been established by EE contributors there is little difference between the classes of output stage so the real difference must be either in the preamp section or speakers or both

This might explain why various similar amps sound different

If not it comes down to how they do what they do.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The one thing I've not been able to do is a listening test with two top-quality power amps of different topologies. Everyone says that's the real test, but since I don't use power amps or need to buy PA, I never bothered. I do have a friend who might could spot me a couple for a couple nights, though. I should hit him up.

I'm at the point where my interest doesn't go beyond this thread.

 

[rodl2005]

I think all are saying (if one can get past the crud) that one should play/use what they like. As far as I know, it's pretty obvious that different topologies of amps make little difference. ..it's more in the design of said amp etc. . Heft.... I think we all Hear/feel that differently.
I can remember a while back, I got an amp that was VERY popular. .. and the online discussion of it made it 'sound' like it would suit me perfectly. ...but, alas, it didn't. My experience with it seemed different from almost all the others.
I DIDN'T let that amp cloud my views of OTHER amps of the same class. For it WAS just that particular amp. It didn't work for me.
OTHER amps. ..of the same class, sounded VERY different, had different feel,tone, everything. Was NOTHING AT ALL to do with the class of power amp in it.
OT - in my opinion, ANY amp CAN have the heft I like/need.
Some class D have it. Some class D don't. Tis in the design. ..in my experience.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Same here, but I talk to sound techs about the differences and they hear them, too. But who wouldn't rather carry one or two racks of 10 lb power amps than 5 or 6 racks of 30 lb power amps?

So much has changed in pro audio that I doubt anyone could pin it all on just power amp technology, especially given the sheer amount of digital jiggery-pokery available in speaker processing these days. I love where the industry has gone on that end. However...

I haven't talked to a pro sound person in a long time who didn't prefer what they bought/used over older, heavier kit. They're getting the results they and their clients want. Several of my recent gigs have been amongst the absolute best live sound I've ever experienced. But that is hardly about gear alone... it also required people who knew what the heck they were doing. And by the same token, inept engineers/techs can screw up even the best setup.

I (and a lot of other guys) still vastly prefer analog mixing desks to digital ones under the following circumstances: A. I don't have to move them; B. I don't have to mix multiple bands or chart them. I use digital desks all the time and they definitely make load-in/out easier and are great when you have a bunch of bands but if the only criteria I'm choosing on is sonics, it's an analog desk every time (particularly Midas). They are objectively not better than digital consoles but the bits of low order distortion in the channel strips and summing amps are quite euphonic and definitely add warmth to a mix. Digital desks don't have that despite all of their excellent features. Not saying that I can't get a nice mix with a digital desk but that I still prefer the less than perfect sound of an analog console.

The one thing I've not been able to do is a listening test with two top-quality power amps of different topologies. Everyone says that's the real test, but since I don't use power amps or need to buy PA, I never bothered. I do have a friend who might could spot me a couple for a couple nights, though. I should hit him up.

I have done this. A bunch of years ago I was involved with some stringent AB tests of pro level power amplifiers with some industry heavyweights. These comparisons were between class AB/class H amps with conventional (i.e. heavy) power supplies and ones with SMPS. This was before class D was really a thing. We all went in with the idea that the SMPS amps would sound light (as that was the common thought about them) compared to the conventional ones. They demonstrated the importance of gain matching (louder system sounds better) and when the amps were gain matched, no one could tell them apart. This test did not get into operation near the limits of the amps but at the time my experience was that the conventional amps did behave better near/beyond clipping.

I've done similar tests between class-D (UCD, ICE) modules and AB modules of the same power in the design of a hifi system and again, below clipping I couldn't discern any difference.

Here we go with the questioning of intelligence again

Yes it was gain matched. Used the same pre amp. Even hit the clip light on the crest .

Get over it

I am not questioning your intelligence at all. However, asking whether the system is gain matched is a fair question as many people aren't aware that it needs to be done. Using the same preamp at the same settings into two different power amps doesn't ensure gain matching. You need to match the gains of the power amplifiers themselves. In your case, the DCM 1500 has ~33dB of gain and the Prolite has ~35dB (not a big difference but enough to have an effect) so in order to get a truly accurate comparison, you'd need to dial the gain back 2dB on the Prolite. Usually the louder (more gain) amp would be perceived as sounding better, but I'm assuming in this case you preferred the Carvin. How were they different? In general, I'd expect similarly rated power amps to sound virtually identical when gain matched and run well within their linear ranges but wouldn't be surprised if they began to sound different as they approach and pass the clip point.

 

[Figjam]

I dont like the way class D amps clip. To me that is anti-heft.

 

[GreyBeard]

I dont like the way class D amps clip. To me that is anti-heft.

I've never liked the way any SS amp sounded when it clipped and that is why I've always tried to have enough clean headroom.

 

[dbase]

Refresher:

Does class D have the Heft of SS?

NO .. and don't ask me why

 

[Mark Reccord]

NO .. and don't ask me why

Because you can throw a class D/SMPS amp a lot farther than a class AB one with a conventional power supply?

 

[seamonkey]

I dont like the way class D amps clip. To me that is anti-heft.

Some amp designers know their amps are going to be clipped, and so design them to clip as nice as any other type amplifier would clip.

 

[quickfix]

I prefer my class H SS amp to my Class D SS amp. Tonight I'm giving my Ampeg PF 800 one more chance to stand on its own.
It, and a PF115HE are going to project my sound in a medium size bar/lounge in about three hours.

The last time I played there I used an ART Prochannel 1 preamp coupled to a Peavey PV2600 class H power amp. All housed in a 4u Gator case. It thumped like crazy and sounded absolutely glorious. It also weighs close to 70 lbs and really sucks to schlep.

 

[rodl2005]

Again. ..design. .... more than type

I've played class D amps that hit HARD and other D's that don't. .other s.s amps that don't. Ain't meaning ALL D's have more or less. ...nor that all trad s.s do neither.
My ears tell me that outta the amp's I'VE tried. ....class D hits harder. Just my experience &, of course, doesn't apply to all, just what I'VE USED and MY OPINION

 

[Figjam]

I've never liked the way any SS amp sounded when it clipped and that is why I've always tried to have enough clean headroom.

Sunn concert bass sounds great. Sounds like it compresses in the power section somehow, sort of like a pignose. Peavey Mark IV didnt clip badly either. Built in compressor may have helped.

 

[GreyBeard]

Sunn concert bass sounds great. Sounds like it compresses in the power section somehow, sort of like a pignose. Peavey Mark IV didnt clip badly either. Built in compressor may have helped.

I had the use of a Sunn Concert bass head back in the day. Nice amp but, I never drove the output stage into clipping so I can't comment on that.

 

[AE1]

I prefer my class H SS amp to my Class D SS amp.

The last time I played there I used an ART Prochannel 1 preamp coupled to a Peavey PV2600 class H power amp. All housed in a 4u Gator case. It thumped like crazy and sounded absolutely glorious. It also weighs close to 70 lbs and really sucks to schlep.

At last Peavey gets a mention.

My stable of Peavey amps have never let me down and do a great job

I regularly mix and match basses, amps and speakers to suit the venue and my mood

The Class H PV2600 is a great amp and to my golden ears has more clarity and a better tone on full-range music than their equivalent Class AB amps. The power supply has more heft than the AB's as well so for me delivers better bass.

When coupled with a Peavey Bassist preamp and 15 or 18 inch drivers the sound is awesome

Weight is no problem for me - is lighter than a guitar amp combo

But the speakers are heavy so I use a trolley to transport them over long distances between the carpark and the stage

For bass though all my Peavey amps are great performers - and for me very reliable

Thanks Peavey