Does class D have the Heft of SS

[JimiLL]

LOL!

Not gonna front...I have always been highly impressed by micros since the first wave of Markbass and Genz Benz micros hit in the mid-to-late-2000's. I actually liked them better than my SS amp at the time, which was an SWR SM-500, and I almost liked them better than tube amps. But then I got my tube amps restored and fixed properly and there was just no comparison. And I still feel that way 10 years later, except I now see why some folks still prefer their lead sled SS amps. But while I do have plenty of micros and feel that they've been improved upon since those days, I hear everything that those who don't like them hear in them, and they are not wrong. They are perfectly usable and many do sound excellent, and like I've pointed out before, their preamps go direct to the board as well as any preamps of similar quality. But to tell us there's no difference is rather insulting and unnecessary. People will still buy them regardless, and the industry pros who make them should stop with trying to convince us that we're wrong about what we hear. We're not.

Yes I wouldn't be surprised to find out that micro amps have a higher profit margin... they sure do come in a better price point than more traditional amps from the same manufacturers.

I have no problem with people using what they like. For some people the difference in sound between class d and lead amps is negligible; that's their opinion with their tonal goals in mInd. For some, myself and I believe you included, the difference is important enough for us to justify carrying hundreds of lbs more equipment. Neither one of us is wrong.

 

[AE1]

So-called "RMS" watts are not necessarily continuous; they can also be short-term. An RMS voltage can be measured accurately in even just a single cycle.

Right on Bob

The issue for me though is that I have to play sets lasting 45 minutes

And what about those guys who play two hours straight ?

In any event my notes last many cycles - rms or whatever

So a one cycle rating has no relevance to my needs

Reliable continuous operation is essential

It is interesting how amplifier manufacturers have changed the methods of measuring power over the years to a point where other posts have noted comparison between manufacturers' ratings is not easy

Comparing apples is no longer comparing apples

Check out the commentary at Invalid Link Removed

In the section "Continuous power and "RMS power" it says "On May 3, 1974, the Invalid Link Removed (FTC) instated its Amplifier Rule[12][13] to combat the unrealistic power claims made by many hi-fi amplifier manufacturers. This rule prescribes continuous power measurements performed with sine wave signals for advertising and specifications of amplifiers sold in the US." [end quote]

But it is rare to see modern amp ratings expressed in "rms continuous". Some say "rms" but "continuous" is not often seen.

"rms" alone does not tell the whole story because high amplitude asymmetric dynamic signals like guitar and piano require a short-time peak power as well as continuous

In another post Behringer say they have developed their own methods for ratings because the conventional methods are no longer applicable. They may well be right but how do we ordinary mortals compare makes and models if each manufacturer uses a different system for ratings ?

I'll stick with "rms continuous" - works for me.

 

[AE1]

Yes, it is obvious that you are puzzled. Maybe I can help "unpuzzle" you, but you need to be willing to open your mind a bit and accept that what you have been posting is not correct.

I give in Aged Horse.

After 50 odd years of bass playing my brain has been dulled by too many decibels.

I have said what I believe and it works for me.

In the end an amp is what it is - it works or it does not.

How well it works is another matter.

There is theory then there is practice.

I'm too old to change the world.

 

[Jim C]

Many thanks to all the engineers and other technical folks who help educate myself and others about how and why amps work.
Also thanks to the players that try to accurately express their experiences for others.

Those with an agenda, or power trip that want to fuss and show how big you think your d!(k is, are not helpful.

I have been a proponent for the thick, 3-D sound of some pre/led sleds or an SVT
I am not saying that this makes them sound better, or are better / higher quality.

Perhaps a few descriptions of "heft" could be:
1. The wight of a note, not necessarily EQ but overall feel; differences in attack, envelope, and release could account for this
* The harmonic content; for many this could be very slight tube distortion or sag; one could make a case that distortion in a tube amp
illustrates poor design and execution even if the sound is appealing. Same with sag or compression. Isn't any modifications to the original wave form considered distortion?
* Extreme low freq reproduction with no filter; SWR comes immediately to mind as some folks claim the SM400 was more of a laboratory amp not suited for live use do to very little if any low freq filtering; I think some class D amps were designed with higher HPF just so that the manufacturers with small cabinets and high power / tiny amps could make their products survive in the hands of those inexperienced, uneducated, or without good judgement.

Amps I've owned that were very good but I didn't love:
SWR SM400 - Bought this in the mid 80's; scooped and uncontrollable low freqs.
Trace SMX 500 (or something like this) - seemed like its' natural voice was a bit scooped and the treble too harsh; love the black light but not the graphic EQ
LMII - didn't sound bad; just didn't sound great
TH 500 - Too wooly
MB500 & MB800 - both nice but not special (I ended up buying and keeping the MB800 Fusion)
Svt 3Pro - Murky and not all that Ampegy; continual issues with solder traces
SVT 7Pro - Didn't like the lo freq control and didn't have enough personality for me; also anxious about reliability issues as mine was older
Shuttle 9.2 - I gigged this a lot but felt the HPF was set too high; it just had so many knobs that I spent more time fine tuning than just playing bass which seemed way out of line (my issue, not the amps)
RB400 - Nice midrange sound but not enough power for inefficient cabinets or low end extension

Amps I like the most:
Big heavy Fender 800 Pro
Ampeg pre / led sled
SVT

Cabs are
Genx Benz Neo 2x12
Bergantino HT322
EV B15M (low volume work)
TL606

Bass - 4 string passive P or J

My question:
Based on my above history and goals, I will try the following amps.
Which would you think would be the best to try first with goals being clean, clear, thick, and rich harmonic content; I'm not exactly sure what this means but something along the lines of more harmonics and overtones like comparing a P to a J bass.

The future try list:
Mesa Subway 800
Magellan 800
Mesa M6 or M9
Ashdown ABM 500 although not sure if 575 watts is enough clean headroom
Maybe a Puma?

I have a GK RB700 coming in on loan although if I bought one it would be a 1001.
Other suggestions?
TIA

 

[agedhorse]

Jim - I think every amp on your list has potential, you just have to see if it suits your specific tastes.

 

[agedhorse]

I give in Aged Horse.

After 50 odd years of bass playing my brain has been dulled by too many decibels.

I have said what I believe and it works for me.

In the end an amp is what it is - it works or it does not.

How well it works is another matter.

There is theory then there is practice.

I'm too old to change the world.

It's not a matter of giving in or changing the world, it's about educating yourself about a topic so that what you say makes sense. You might try an EE degree, but once you get the education you will see why your arguments make no sense. Belief and blind faith will only get you so far without the underlying understanding, and once you understand your beliefs may change.

I didn't spend 6 years at my university for nothing. I don't have a need for beliefs without the science to back them up, I at least owe that to the customers who play what I design (that's kind of how my morals roll). I'm not selling magic potions or snake oil.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

It's not a matter of giving in or changing the world, it's about educating yourself about a topic so that what you say makes sense. You might try an EE degree, but once you get the education you will see why your arguments make no sense. Belief and blind faith will only get you so far without the underlying understanding, and once you understand your beliefs may change.

I didn't spend 6 years at my university for nothing. I don't have a need for beliefs without the science to back them up, I at least owe that to the customers who play what I design (that's kind of how my morals roll). I'm not selling magic potions or snake oil.

Doggone it because of you I'm gonna end up buying a Mesa eventually... I just know it!

 

[Isotonic]

It's not a matter of giving in or changing the world, it's about educating yourself about a topic so that what you say makes sense. You might try an EE degree, but once you get the education you will see why your arguments make no sense. Belief and blind faith will only get you so far without the underlying understanding, and once you understand your beliefs may change.

I didn't spend 6 years at my university for nothing. I don't have a need for beliefs without the science to back them up, I at least owe that to the customers who play what I design (that's kind of how my morals roll). I'm not selling magic potions or snake oil.

Consider that you are an EE, and you are talking to a bunch of artists. Artists have to interpret what they here with terms and paradigms that are usually idiosyncratic. Don't discount their perceptions. After all, a pro musician is also a pro listener. They may be onto to something that you are not aware of. I have known a lot of EEs. I respect their skills but I have also noticed that they are blind outside of the complicated, but closed systems that they rely upon to work in.

Incidentally, I appreciate your comment on my comment. I assure you that I have heard many preamps. I also do a lot of Hifi, and have experience in pro sound and recording. I understand what a preamp does and how it affects the sound. I get that Genz Benz products are designed with different sonic goals to reach different projected markets. But it was not preamp flavor that influenced my perspective. I have heard class AB amps all my life. Class D simply sounds different. I can hear it in my Bel Canto desk stereo for example. It's not bad, but it simply presents differently. However I will give the Shuttlemax a listen. I would love to find a class D amp that would work for me.

Oh, and I just got back from rehearsal, using the 1200. What an incredibly musical and versatile amp you have designed. I love it.

 

[agedhorse]

Consider that you are an EE, and you are talking to a bunch of artists. Artists have to interpret what they here with terms and paradigms that are usually idiosyncratic. Don't discount their perceptions. After all, a pro musician is also a pro listener. They may be onto to something that you are not aware of. I have known a lot of EEs. I respect their skills but I have also noticed that they are blind outside of the complicated, but closed systems that they rely upon to work in.

Incidentally, I appreciate your comment on my comment. I assure you that I have heard many preamps. I also do a lot of Hifi, and have experience in pro sound and recording. I understand what a preamp does and how it affects the sound. I get that Genz Benz products are designed with different sonic goals to reach different projected markets. But it was not preamp flavor that influenced my perspective. I have heard class AB amps all my life. Class D simply sounds different. I can hear it in my Bel Canto desk stereo for example. It's not bad, but it simply presents differently. However I will give the Shuttlemax a listen. I would love to find a class D amp that would work for me.

I am not discounting perception, nor am I discounting the artistic side of this... I spent over 30 years in the touring pro audio side of things at FOH in between my day job projects. I very easily and fluidly cross between the two worlds, BUT when double-blind listening tests disprove perception (including my own, as I'm not immune to wishing something might work better than it does), I am obligated to go with the facts rather than the perception, otherwise I am just propagating some of the same BS as I stand against.

Regarding the Class AB versus class D stuff, I have designed both types of amps, I have access to test equipment and set-ups that allow me to compare specific items without extraneous variables in a double-blind manner. When 2 power amps are driven by identical preamps (I mean identical down to well matched everything) and double-blind testing by players shows zero difference, how can I in good conscience say that one is better than the other... again that is perpetuating the BS that I stand against. That doesn't mean that I COULDN'T design in differences in either topology, but then that's not the topology responsible for the difference is it?

If class D doesn't work for you, for whatever reason, the world is awash with good used class AB amps for pennies on the dollar. I hauled off about 500 pounds of class AB amps (most working) to the scrapper because it wasn't worth the cost of selling and shipping it. In fact I could barely give it away for the cost of shipping.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It's funny because so many years ago when micros were first coming out you had a demographic of people that swore up and down that these new amps had no drawback, sounded just as good at any volume as lead sleds did, and would stop just short of questioning your intelligence if your opinion differed.

Now that there's a new generation of micros, these same people are saying they can't believe how much these new amps have improved upon the prior models in sound and feel

I think every adult could benefit from taking an entry level psychology course.

IME that's an oversimplification. When micros were first coming out they were not all equal.

Many of the naysayers had no experience with micros. That didn't preclude them from having very strong opinions. They couldn't believe that something they were unfamiliar with could possibly compete with what they loved. And they morphed that belief into fact. A scant handful actually admitted as much later on.

And worse, the newer variant could completely obliterate the old favorite. I guess it's like watching a childhood hero get old. They do... if they live long enough.


Many only had experience with the most affordable class D offerings and painted everything in the class with that brush. So a 200w GK equaled an Acoustic Image in sound quality. Right

My Markbass LMII is now ten years old. It sounds just as good through the cabs I own as it did at the beginning. It sounded great on my gigs. Since then I've used three other amps. And the move from great to greater to greater doesn't turn the prior great item into something negative.

 

[JimiLL]

I am not discounting perception, nor am I discounting the artistic side of this... I spent over 30 years in the touring pro audio side of things at FOH in between my day job projects. I very easily and fluidly cross between the two worlds, BUT when double-blind listening tests disprove perception (including my own, as I'm not immune to wishing something might work better than it does), I am obligated to go with the facts rather than the perception, otherwise I am just propagating some of the same BS as I stand against.

Regarding the Class AB versus class D stuff, I have designed both types of amps, I have access to test equipment and set-ups that allow me to compare specific items without extraneous variables in a double-blind manner. When 2 power amps are driven by identical preamps (I mean identical down to well matched everything) and double-blind testing by players shows zero difference, how can I in good conscience say that one is better than the other... again that is perpetuating the BS that I stand against. That doesn't mean that I COULDN'T design in differences in either topology, but then that's not the topology responsible for the difference is it?

If class D doesn't work for you, for whatever reason, the world is awash with good used class AB amps for pennies on the dollar. I hauled off about 500 pounds of class AB amps (most working) to the scrapper because it wasn't worth the cost of selling and shipping it. In fact I could barely give it away for the cost of shipping.

I a/bd a carvin dcm 1500 and crest pro lite 2.0. There was a difference

 

[Dave Hill]

I a/bd a carvin dcm 1500 and crest pro lite 2.0. There was a difference

Don't forget Crest 2.0's 2k power rating is "burst". An RMS rating may be closer to half that. I upped my rig to a 3.0.

 

[dbase]

I wrote in the 4th post that I was waiting for my 1st class D amp... I bought a 7lb Hartke TX600 a year ago, only used it 5 times and went back to my 42lb LH500 which for a SS I feel has more headroom and tone. The class D was loud but just has a different sound. Just cant explain it. Not enough oomph? When I traded the TX600 in at the local music store they were stacked to the ceiling with used ones. I guess I'm not alone.

 

[two fingers]

My experience with them is limited. But recently I was blown away. I young bassist at my church recently bought (here on TB) a used GK MB 500. Right out of the box, it just sounds like a great bass amp should. I didn't "miss" anything when he and I played through it.

It has me wanting to try a Mesa Subway badly.

I was absolutely impressed.

 

[JimiLL]

Don't forget Crest 2.0's 2k power rating is "burst". An RMS rating may be closer to half that. I upped my rig to a 3.0.

Didn't know that

 

[JimiLL]

I wrote in the 4th post that I was waiting for my 1st class D amp... I bought a 7lb Hartke TX600 a year ago, only used it 5 times and went back to my 42lb LH500 which for a SS I feel has more headroom and tone. The class D was loud but just has a different sound. Just cant explain it. Not enough oomph? When I traded the TX600 in at the local music store they were stacked to the ceiling with used ones. I guess I'm not alone.

I dont know how much longer Hartke is going to make it

 

[GreyBeard]

I a/bd a carvin dcm 1500 and crest pro lite 2.0. There was a difference

Can you describe the difference?

 

[blubass]

I a/bd a carvin dcm 1500 and crest pro lite 2.0. There was a difference

This is no different than saying I A/B'd an Ampeg SVT7 Pro and a GK 400RB IV and there was a difference. Or any other two differing amps, regardless of power class makeup. Of course they weren't the same amp, they weren't designed the same, and they weren't intended to produce the same results.

 

[Loring]

This is no different than saying I A/B'd an Ampeg SVT7 Pro and a GK 400RB IV and there was a difference. Or any other two differing amps, regardless of power class makeup. Of course they weren't the same amp, they weren't designed the same, and they weren't intended to produce the same results.

Exactly...

You could a/b an old tube fender a real svt and a laney. Hmm there was a difference. You could a/b different d class amps too. A darkglass vs a genzler vs an eich vs a subway and whadaya know there's a difference.

There is a difference in amps by design. That likely has more of an influence than topology. Especially in SS vs class D (Which is technically SS also). Tubes are different as they tend to flavour the output - although some of the dirty channels on preamp came pretty close.

 

[GreyBeard]

I wrote in the 4th post that I was waiting for my 1st class D amp... I bought a 7lb Hartke TX600 a year ago, only used it 5 times and went back to my 42lb LH500 which for a SS I feel has more headroom and tone. The class D was loud but just has a different sound. Just cant explain it. Not enough oomph? When I traded the TX600 in at the local music store they were stacked to the ceiling with used ones. I guess I'm not alone.

I would say that from this one might conclude that the TX600 is lacking. Maybe something to do with the HPF.