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Does class D have the Heft of SS

#161
Gizmot said:
The big reasons are size (1 and 2 rack spaces), weight and electrical efficiency. In some venues, even on big tours, available power can be a problem, so amps with 85 -90% effficiency are a must
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That's not the only reason, or you wouldn't be seeing the 20+ truck tours still out there. Remember that these are tours where folks can take out anything they want, budget is no problem, power is no problem, size is no problem, weight is no problem. These arenas have 4, 6 or more 400A, 120/208V, 3 phase road show services available, and with lighting going to a lot of LED and discharge sources, power is less of a concern now than before.
 
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#162
MrCash said:
From Aguilar's blurb.
The conventional class AB power amplifier is a tried-and-true design, but one that operates relatively inefficiently, producing enough excess heat to require noisy fans and large heat sinks, which add to an amplifier’s bulk. Class D amps are far more efficient. They produce power by switching transistors on and off at a high frequency using a process called Pulse Width Modulation. The AG 500 is like a Class D amp, but it utilizes switching technology developed by the Tripath Corporation. The Tripath power amp topology, named Class T, modulates the output using a proprietary module that purports to eliminate some of the weaknesses of Class D amps while maintaining the efficiency that’s a hallmark of the technology. Aguilar’s AG 500 uses a Class T output stage and a conventional linear power transformer.
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When was that written? Do you think Class D developement has stood still since then?
 
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#163
The Acoustic 360 is no question a fantastic amp. I had to sell mine because I no longer have a station wagon. Seriously.

Class D amps? Heft? I suggest anyone who doubts whether Class D amps are capable of "heft" do a couple gigs with a Crest ProLite 3.0, if you have any doubts. Then get back to me. Why anyone would take a TH500 which has a multitude of competing design goals as representative of the general class D amps is just provoking arguments. That's a compact, and potent little box which is pretty useful for those who want that combination of elements. Comparing that to a 40 pound DB751 is just ludicrously and pointlessly inflammatory. Why would you need to do that?

My rack with the ProLite 3.0 and a Demeter preamp is probably lighter than the DB751. Comparing those boxes; ok, that's a discussion. We can have that one. No problem
 
#164
bass151 said:
HI Brad Johnson, I know you we can buy 1000 watts for $400 to $600, but they tend to be the lower end brands. I remember reading in the Subway 800 amp forum a list of about a half a dozen class D amps that used a bigger power supply than some of the 500 watt and below amps. Would one of those amps have more heft, real or perceived at moderate to somewhat loud levels than the units with the smaller power supply? Not overdriving type volume.
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The Peavey MiniMega and Bugera Veyrons fit that bill. The Veyron is just under $400. Based on my gigging experience with it I don't consider it a lower end brand. Nor the Peavey which I've only put through its paces at a store where they allow you to crank things beyond gig volume. Neither lacked anything IMO. I've compared my amp against amps costing more than twice as much. I'm still very satisfied with my amp. And I go for clean volume.

I know some folks still think that if you spend more you get more. The only thing that's a given is that you spent more.
:D

One of my favorite examples is the TecAmp Puma 500. Originally it was double the price of a Markbass Little Mark II at $1,200. I'd be willing to bet that many jumped on that with the high price as a motivating factor, after all... if it's twice as much it must be better. Over the years the new price dropped over $400. I don't blame them for charging what they originally charged.
 
#166
bucephylus said:
The Acoustic 360 is no question a fantastic amp. I had to sell mine because I no longer have a station wagon. Seriously.

Class D amps? Heft? I suggest anyone who doubts whether Class D amps are capable of "heft" do a couple gigs with a Crest ProLite 3.0, if you have any doubts. Then get back to me. Why anyone would take a TH500 which has a multitude of competing design goals as representative of the general class D amps is just provoking arguments. That's a compact, and potent little box which is pretty useful for those who want that combination of elements. Comparing that to a 40 pound DB751 is just ludicrously and pointlessly inflammatory. Why would you need to do that?

My rack with the ProLite 3.0 and a Demeter preamp is probably lighter than the DB751. Comparing those boxes; ok, that's a discussion. We can have that one. No problem
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My Pope/1500w Crown rack is less than half the weight of my DB750 at 20 lbs..
 
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#168
bucephylus said:
Precisely! Folks need a reality check here.

And, you know what? If someone prefers the DB 751 because it suits their tonal goals, that's completely cool. But wanking on Class D based on some micro implementation is just laughable, no?
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Agreed. I have no problem with anyone's preference... you have to use it, I don't. I traded for my DB750 based on its rep and fully expected it to part the clouds and let the sun shine in. And while it's a very nice amp, for my overall demands my rack worked better. And so have the class D heads I've used since. I was perfectly happy with my Shuttle 9.0 when I came across the Veyron.

Class D amps cannot be generalized as many have here IME.
 
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#171
Does class D have the heft of SS? Yes. But just like tubes are different from transistors, so too are the new D output modules different from old-school solid state amps. The more salient question is simply this: is this technology musically useful to people? The answer to that is unquestionably yes.
 
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#172
bucephylus said:
Precisely! Folks need a reality check here.

And, you know what? If someone prefers the DB 751 because it suits their tonal goals, that's completely cool. But wanking on Class D based on some micro implementation is just laughable, no?
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No. First off, while I wouldn't call it "wanking on class D," I'm basing my opinions partially on what a lot of PA guys have told me about their experiences with top of the line power amps over the years as well. Second, if what we get as bass players is weak sauce, then it's entirely fair to base our opinions on them because that's what we're getting, and that's what the thread is about.
 
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#173
jacolyte said:
so class D isn't solid state?

come back after you've acquired a clue.

next!
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;)

1930's patent using tubes
Patent US1874159 - Electric amplifying circuits

1950's patent using tubes
Patent US3011025 - High power amplifier

"Class" doesn't care about devices used.

In real life some devices work much better than others, and SS work much better than tubes for Class-d
Even then, it didn't catch on until SS devices really came up usable standards for full range audio.
It's now decades later, everything is stable.
 
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#174
JimmyM said:
No. First off, while I wouldn't call it "wanking on class D," I'm basing my opinions partially on what a lot of PA guys have told me about their experiences with top of the line power amps over the years as well. Second, if what we get as bass players is weak sauce, then it's entirely fair to base our opinions on them because that's what we're getting, and that's what the thread is about.
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Jimmy, I know you know your amps. My comment was not aimed at you, even though I know you mentioned those amps. I also know you understand my point. Nuff said.
 
#175
bucephylus said:
Jimmy, I know you know your amps. My comment was not aimed at you, even though I know you mentioned those amps. I also know you understand my point. Nuff said.
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I did understand your point. I just wanted to say why I thought it wasn't all that laughable. And to provoke thought and more discussion, since this thread has turned out to be somewhat better than the usual discussions on the subject. And just in case it was partially aimed at me :D

I do wish my knowledge of power amps was better, though. I've only owned one in my whole life and that was in 1981 that I bought it. Therefore I have to rely on people whose opinions I trust rather than basing them on my own experience. I do, however, have to wonder if it's true that we as bassists only get crappy lightweight power amps, why that is. Certainly I understand that a lot of us are cheap, but a lot of us also aren't cheap, and PA power amps don't seem to be so high priced to where it would make a 500w bass amp insanely priced.
 
#176
JimmyM said:
I did understand your point. I just wanted to say why I thought it wasn't all that laughable. And to provoke thought and more discussion, since this thread has turned out to be somewhat better than the usual discussions on the subject. And just in case it was partially aimed at me :D

I do wish my knowledge of power amps was better, though. I've only owned one in my whole life and that was in 1981 that I bought it. Therefore I have to rely on people whose opinions I trust rather than basing them on my own experience. I do, however, have to wonder if it's true that we as bassists only get crappy lightweight power amps, why that is. Certainly I understand that a lot of us are cheap, but a lot of us also aren't cheap, and PA power amps don't seem to be so high priced to where it would make a 500w bass amp insanely priced.
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Interesting point. I suspect it is a market size issue. Perhaps.
 
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#177
As has already been suggested, the indefinable nature of the term "heft" makes this conversation difficult. While some are claiming that heft is the property of a stiff power supply, but Jimmy claims his B15n has it, they can't all be talking about the same property. The B15n has a tube rectified power supply, and the power transformer and filtering are adequate but certainly not generously specified, so the sag is part of its sound.
 
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#179
I've been using a Trace Elliot AH400SM for nearly 20 years. It's been a reliable and powerful workhorse for me. I've used it with a pair of custom cabs for nearly as long and it's been a very faithful amp...if a little heavy. in fact it's heavier than either of my cabs. It seems to have more power than other 400w heads I've used. Late last year my amp blew...so I needed a fast replacement due to gig commitments. I jumped on a chance to get an Ashdown RM420. It's a small class D amp with a few more features than my old Trace. It carries a similar tonal character to my old Trace (which was also important...I'm a bit of a Luddite). So far it's been reliable and just as loud as my old lead sled. The fan can be a little noisy bit it's a lot lighter and smaller....and seems to push air in the same fashion. So far I've not found it wanting in the low end at all and it's great being able to pop it into my gig bag. The weakest part of the design is the DI, but that's got nothing to do with the power section. The one knob compressor seems to add a lot of gain too. But over all....it's a great amp and considering the crazy cheap price I paid for it....it's smiles all the way for me.
 

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