Does class D have the Heft of SS

[Brad Johnson]

Agedhorse, years ago I purchased a Shuttle 6.0 and thought it was fine although I thought it lacked a bit of low end. So when the 9.0 came out. I was interested. Called and talked to you and Jeff, and both of you were very informative, but I do remember one of you mentioned that some bottom end was filtered out of the 6.0 because many customers would be using that generation of GB cabs which would minimize cab damage. At that time I believe either you or Jeff told me the 9.0 went lower. So does the 9.0 go as low as some of the more current designs? By the way, I bought two 9.0's based on that reccomendation. And yes, it seems to me neo cabs can get down their, but not at higher volume levels, so I continue to use heavy cabs.

Neo cabs have also changed.

 

[MrCash]

If things have changed so much then why are companies often (not always) trying to give you the sound of some ancient valve amp.

I had an old 90s Trace Elliot 300w it was louder and had more authority than many (not all) new and supposedly many times more powerful amps.

I really don't think class d amps have had the rise in quality that say the first transistor amps had. And class d has been around for a long time. There close and some are better than transistor or valve even but there few and fair between and expensive.

Anecdotal evidence suggest that people are hearing or feeling a difference.

 

[agedhorse]

High pass filtering is not all the same. Different knee points, slopes and alignments can be used to achieve different things with regard to articulation, low frequency cabinet control, driver protection, tightness of feel, etc.

As amps have become larger (higher powered), AND at the same time speaker cabinets were becoming more compact, it became obvious (to engineers who understood the dynamics of speaker failure modes) that unless some form of extreme low frequency limits were placed on the signal appropriate to the low frequency power limits of the compact speaker systems, the new bass amp/speaker systems would become unreliable at an unacceptable rate and lead to a bad reputation for this entire class of products.

In the example Doug provided about the Shuttle's, let me give a little background leading to the decisions that were made about HPF's. The Shuttle 3.0's were primarily intended as very compact combos, size/weight were the customer's most important perceived need. These players were typically using 4 strings, playing at moderate volumes, and did not need (or want) deep low end. The HPF points were set a little higher as this met the needs of this type of player, improved articulation and useable volume. It also improved the character of an overdriven signal at reasonable volumes. Incidentally, this amp became popular for upright, and remained unchanged for its entire product life until GB was shut down.

The Shuttle 6.0 was also developed as a combo first, but also intended as a stand alone head. The speaker cabinets for the combo versions of the 6.0 were larger than the 3.0 and supported better low frequency performance, so HPF turnover points were a little lower. Still, most of the players who were looking for amps in this catagory (at this time) were pairing them with compact style cabinets, so suitable HPF's are a benefit regardless of the manufacturer of this catagory of cabinet. As the product evolved into the .2 version, in response to general improvements in all manufacturer's speaker approaches to compact cabinetd, a new dynamics management algorithm was introduced and the HPF frequency was lowered (slightly). This design provided a good compromise between protection for compact speakers and performance for full sized speakers.

With the 9.0 (and 9.2) which delivers over 900 watts "RMS" into 4 Ohm's, the primary application was with full sized speakers rather than compact speakers. This allowed the HPF to be a little lower still, but with the increased power and low frequency performance comes the caution of potential damage when using with speakers in the compact catagory. A good dose of common sense is necessary when any compact speaker is used with an amp of this power level.

Also, the LF Boost (actually a LF Extend) filter switch served to lower the effective HPF by a little less than a third of an octave when engaged, something that is discussed in the owner's manual and here on TB several times. If you have larger speakers, engaging this switch improves LF performance. When doing so at high power using compact cabinets, common sense is necessary of course.

Bass amps AND speakers are constantly evolving, as are players wants-needs-desires. Performance capabilities are also evolving, nothing remains static for very long.

 

[blubass]

If things have changed so much then why are companies often (not always) trying to give you the sound of some ancient valve amp.

I'm not speaking on behalf of any class D amps, but the answer to this is simple. The first of anything to market becomes the "standard perception" for anything similar in the eyes of the consumer market. When class D bass amps were mass marketed and every manufacturer had their debut, I remember the general statement being they didn't have the "low end" of anything previously. Regardless of whether that was true or not, it became the stigma for a few years. I had a hell of a time selling them at when I was in retail music sales. It's easier to then sell you a product with a tone in mind you're familiar with than to try and reinvent the wheel.

Line6 had similar issues. They modeled valve amps, but anyone could walk in their local GC and A/B them. A lot of people nitpicked the crap out of them, then pigeon-hole'd the company as crap.

Does class D have the same heft as SS? Some do, some don't. Are there any companies that have release the EXACT same preamp with a different power amp section? There-in would be one answer, though it would only be pertinent to those specific power amps.

 

[MrCash]

Have we really moved that much forward as bass players.
Have our needs and wants changed that much?
I honestly am sceptical about that.
We still have the same volume needs maybe more clear clean headroom, the venue sizes haven't changed.
Some want a more modern sound but many don't at all.
People do want smaller or lighter gear for sure.
Many see an old ampeg svt as the ultimate amp still.

If we moved on that much the p bass would be the way of the dodo.

 

[bass151]

So agedhorse, Is the HPF on my 9.0's anywhere near as low as the most current crop of class D amps.

 

[bass151]

Hi brad johnson. I realize neo cabs have been improved with some of the current models. However I visited my local GC, they had a pair of SL112's which I tried with a TH500. Sounded fine at low to moderate levels, but above that, nope. On that same visit I also tried an Epifani UL410. It sounded very nasal, and while I did not play at really loud levels, it didn't sound like it would keep up with my current 410 or 210/115 stack. Both of these are pretty current examples of neo's. Only thing that they had used at that time was an Orange 15. Tried that and to my ears sounded more 3 dimensional, more organic, more tight low end. I am not a fan of 15's but to me the Orange sounded dramatically better.

 

[Latitude94941]

This is an interesting point, Andy.

A related follow up question:

For a bass player in a typical bar band scenario (too much equipment plugged into a single AC circuit in a building that has less than ideal electrical wiring to begin with) would the larger capacitance of an amplifier with an analog (line frequency) power supply perform better during musical peaks than an amp with a switching power supply, (which if I understand it correctly) draws more directly from the AC line?

Not sure if this question got lost in the shuffle but hoping someone can shed some light on it.

If @agedhorse is too busy, maybe @rag, @Bob Lee (QSC), or @Passinwind could share their thoughts on this scenario?

 

[TMARK]

Hi brad johnson. I realize neo cabs have been improved with some of the current models. However I visited my local GC, they had a pair of SL112's which I tried with a TH500. Sounded fine at low to moderate levels, but above that, nope. On that same visit I also tried an Epifani UL410. It sounded very nasal, and while I did not play at really loud levels, it didn't sound like it would keep up with my current 410 or 210/115 stack. Both of these are pretty current examples of neo's. Only thing that they had used at that time was an Orange 15. Tried that and to my ears sounded more 3 dimensional, more organic, more tight low end. I am not a fan of 15's but to me the Orange sounded dramatically better.

I just got a TH500 and an SL112. I was looking for a light combo amp but this Aguilar set up sounded much better than any of the GK or Fender combos and I got a really good deal on them as floor models. I can get the TH500 and SL112 to sound great, but lows are lacking at medium loud gig volume. So I stacked the SL on a Trace 15. Boom. All 3D and smooth, big lows. Nothing lacking about the sound at all.

 

[bass151]

Tmark, I agree the Sl112 sounds good, and I'm pretty sure it's much better than most combos. Most gigs I play are with no FOH support, and honestly, I think I would get buried with 2 SL112's. Recently tried a pair of GS112's, sounded much bigger, fuller, a lot more bottom and louder as well.

 

[seamonkey]

I'm going to make this into a sticker and slap it on the side of my 5lb bass head, to improve the tone. View attachment 852720

And here's a handy tip to build a carrying case for it

 

[Brad Johnson]

If things have changed so much then why are companies often (not always) trying to give you the sound of some ancient valve amp.

Because some people like it? And others like other stuff.


I'm guessing that's a serious question. No offense... I tried to to think of how it could not be a silly one. I failed. What you're ultimately saying is that if things have changed so much why hasn't EVERYTHING changed. The technology that changed, did. The companies that offer products based on older technology do.

Class T is such a tiny footnote in the story of amps I have no idea why you're focused on it.

I had an old 90s Trace Elliot 300w it was louder and had more authority than many (not all) new and supposedly many times more powerful amps.

I had a top of the line TE stack back in the 80's, my last "hype" purchase. Ending up seriously disliking it. Had to be tweaked every time I changed basses and venues. Mine was 500w. In my case, as far as it being louder than even a Markbass Little Mark II... sorry, that is flat out laughable. I'd look elsewhere for the culprit behind your skewed results. I don't know of any current 500w class D amp it could hang with. Which ones did you hear?

I really don't think class d amps have had the rise in quality that say the first transistor amps had. And class d has been around for a long time. There close and some are better than transistor or valve even but there few and fair between and expensive.

You've proven just how strong your foundation on this subject is so far so I'm not surprised that you think that. In the meantime, while class D has been around before it gained favor in the bass amplification segment, it's only been around ten years since the popularity exploded here. So saying that the first transistor amps (are you actually talking about the amps in the sixties because that's when they gained popularity) are the same quality as the current crop of class D? If so... hey, that's your opinion and you can run with it. If you're talking about another era of transistor amps, you're not really talking about the first as it pertains to us.

Anecdotal evidence suggest that people are hearing or feeling a difference.

There will never be a shortage of folks like this on TB. As it should be.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

And here's a handy tip to build a carrying case for it

I loaded this onto my amp and I just got another day older and deeper in debt.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Have we really moved that much forward as bass players.
Have our needs and wants changed that much?
I honestly am sceptical about that.
We still have the same volume needs maybe more clear clean headroom, the venue sizes haven't changed.
Some want a more modern sound but many don't at all.
People do want smaller or lighter gear for sure.
Many see an old ampeg svt as the ultimate amp still.

If we moved on that much the p bass would be the way of the dodo.

Some of us have, some haven't. Again, are these actual questions in your mind?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hi brad johnson. I realize neo cabs have been improved with some of the current models. However I visited my local GC, they had a pair of SL112's which I tried with a TH500. Sounded fine at low to moderate levels, but above that, nope. On that same visit I also tried an Epifani UL410. It sounded very nasal, and while I did not play at really loud levels, it didn't sound like it would keep up with my current 410 or 210/115 stack. Both of these are pretty current examples of neo's. Only thing that they had used at that time was an Orange 15. Tried that and to my ears sounded more 3 dimensional, more organic, more tight low end. I am not a fan of 15's but to me the Orange sounded dramatically better.

I'm not surprised.

There are other neo cabs out there. Seek them and you'll get a handle on what better neo cabs can do. the same is true for most gear. While the SL112 is fairly current, if you're talking about the same Epifani that I'm familiar with, that's not current.

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

I had a top of the line TE stack back in the 80's, my last "hype" purchase. Ending up seriously disliking it. Had to be tweaked every time I changed basses and venues. Mine was 500w. In my case, as far as it being louder than even a Markbass Little Mark II... sorry, that is flat out laughable. I'd look elsewhere for the culprit behind your skewed results. I don't know of any current 500w class D amp it could hang with. Which ones did you hear?

Something had to have been amiss. I played through more than one TE 500 back in the day, and it would bury any 500w class D I've played through. I currently own three and have had and sold 3 others, and they all pale in comparison. Hell the TE 250 was/is as loud as my 500s are.

 

[tfer]

What I know about amplification can be summed up with this. I'll let the experts determine the most efficient way to give it to me.

 

[MrCash]

Because some people like it? And others like other stuff.


I'm guessing that's a serious question. No offense... I tried to to think of how it could not be a silly one. I failed. What you're ultimately saying is that if things have changed so much why hasn't EVERYTHING changed. The technology that changed, did. The companies that offer products based on older technology do.

Class T is such a tiny footnote in the story of amps I have no idea why you're focused on it.



I had a top of the line TE stack back in the 80's, my last "hype" purchase. Ending up seriously disliking it. Had to be tweaked every time I changed basses and venues. Mine was 500w. In my case, as far as it being louder than even a Markbass Little Mark II... sorry, that is flat out laughable. I'd look elsewhere for the culprit behind your skewed results. I don't know of any current 500w class D amp it could hang with. Which ones did you hear?



You've proven just how strong your foundation on this subject is so far so I'm not surprised that you think that. In the meantime, while class D has been around before it gained favor in the bass amplification segment, it's only been around ten years since the popularity exploded here. So saying that the first transistor amps (are you actually talking about the amps in the sixties because that's when they gained popularity) are the same quality as the current crop of class D? If so... hey, that's your opinion and you can run with it. If you're talking about another era of transistor amps, you're not really talking about the first as it pertains to us.



There will never be a shortage of folks like this on TB. As it should be.

Ok firstly I've not mentioned class t in that post at all. My questions regarding the tech have been answered.
My point is I don't think amps have changed that much in sounds Imo. And that companies always claim this and that but very often there's only small differences. Some argue that they have went backwards.

And haha in the same cab a old 90s 300w trace Elliot gp7 is louder than many class d heads of 500w. I've tested this out myself rumble 500 which I still own, lm3 500 and an ampeg pf500. Before this I tried out an mark bass Nano 300 and a pf350. With the exception that all those amps sounded better than the trace. Oh and it blown away my old ampeg b2r at 500w.
I wasn't after any more volume good thing because I never got it but I was very surprised that they didn't quite keep up. On noticing many others say the same I started this thread.

And i noticed in my quest for knowledge there is a thread currently over on Basschat now where someone has tested there 30w b15 to be louder than a markbass 500w head @ 300w!

And no I'm not directly comparing the amps timelines together. But class D has been around in amplification for many years. Back then the Transistor was totally new.

I may of given the impression I'm against class d. I'm not at all I'm using a class d amp now. But for whatever reason many class d heads that claim to be of a certain power are lacking compared to older tech. Not all of them but a lot of them and people have noticed. I've really enjoyed this thread apart from when other posters have maybe not got my true meaning, my fault for typing quickly on a mobile device.

I've seen alot of threads on the subject but I am determined to get to the bottom of this even if I have to go to the top first.

 

[bass151]

Hey Brad Johnson, What neo's do you think I should try? Thanks

 

[Brad Johnson]

Something had to have been amiss. I played through more than one TE 500 back in the day, and it would bury any 500w class D I've played through. I currently own three and have had and sold 3 others, and they all pale in comparison. Hell the TE 250 was/is as loud as my 500s are.

Mine was in working order. I'd bet money that it wasn't louder than my Kustom... if it was even that powerful.

IIRC it was an AH500 driving a 410/115 stack. The 115 was thoroughly unimpressive and was as large as the 410. My AMP BH420 hit harder than my head. Not a fan.