Does class D have the Heft of SS

[agedhorse]

So agedhorse, Is the HPF on my 9.0's anywhere near as low as the most current crop of class D amps.

Yes, and with the LF Boost (extend) filter engaged it's likely a bit lower than most.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey Brad Johnson, What neo's do you think I should try? Thanks

Cabs? What's your budget? There are several choices, much higher quality than previous Neo cabs.

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

Mine was in working order. I'd bet money that it wasn't louder than my Kustom... if it was even that powerful.

IIRC it was an AH500 driving a 410/115 stack. The 115 was thoroughly unimpressive and was as large as the 410. My AMP BH420 hit harder than my head. Not a fan.

Never tried the Kustom...

 

[agedhorse]

Not sure if this question got lost in the shuffle but hoping someone can shed some light on it.

If @agedhorse is too busy, maybe @rag, @Bob Lee (QSC), or @Passinwind could share their thoughts on this scenario?

I thought I answered this but I guess it didn't get posted.

Under conditions of limited power supply capacity, an SMPS powered class D amp would likely exhibit better performance than an equivalent line frequency powered linear amp because the difference in efficiency (and power factor of the power supply) places less demands on the power source. The only possible challenge is if the voltage drops below what's safe for the amp (typically about 105 volts), the SMPS/class D amp will shut down to protect against damage (if well designed) but the linear amp might continue working until it possibly blows up. Pick which failure (fault) mode suits your personal preference.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Ok firstly I've not mentioned class t in that post at all. My questions regarding the tech have been answered.
My point is I don't think amps have changed that much in sounds Imo. And that companies always claim this and that but very often there's only small differences. Some argue that they have went backwards.

And haha in the same cab a old 90s 300w trace Elliot gp7 is louder than many class d heads of 500w. I've tested this out myself rumble 500 which I still own, lm3 500 and an ampeg pf500. Before this I tried out an mark bass Nano 300 and a pf350. With the exception that all those amps sounded better than the trace. Oh and it blown away my old ampeg b2r at 500w.
I wasn't after any more volume good thing because I never got it but I was very surprised that they didn't quite keep up. On noticing many others say the same I started this thread.

And i noticed in my quest for knowledge there is a thread currently over on Basschat now where someone has tested there 30w b15 to be louder than a markbass 500w head @ 300w!

And no I'm not directly comparing the amps timelines together. But class D has been around in amplification for many years. Back then the Transistor was totally new.

I may of given the impression I'm against class d. I'm not at all I'm using a class d amp now. But for whatever reason many class d heads that claim to be of a certain power are lacking compared to older tech. Not all of them but a lot of them and people have noticed. I've really enjoyed this thread apart from when other posters have maybe not got my true meaning, my fault for typing quickly on a mobile device.

I've seen alot of threads on the subject but I am determined to get to the bottom of this even if I have to go to the top first.

You know what? Just keep running with your current knowledge base and go with what some people say. I'm cool with that. I could address all of the stuff in this post but why? You know what you know.

 

[agedhorse]

If things have changed so much then why are companies often (not always) trying to give you the sound of some ancient valve amp.

Says who? I don't recall me ever saying this, nor do I try to give anybody the sound of some ancient valve amp in the products I design.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Never tried the Kustom...

KXB500. It's no joke.

 

[MrCash]

You know what? Just keep running with your current knowledge base and go with what some people say. I'm cool with that. I could address all of the stuff in this post but why? You know what you know.

Bit of an arrogant post there.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Bit of an arrogant post there.

You don't say?


Not arrogant... just tired. Hope that's okay. I have no vested interest in bringing you current on amplification... and I realize that. So given the choice between dealing with what appears to be your attitude and leaving you to your own devices, I'm taking the easy way out.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I thought I answered this but I guess it didn't get posted.

Under conditions of limited power supply capacity, an SMPS powered class D amp would likely exhibit better performance than an equivalent line frequency powered linear amp because the difference in efficiency (and power factor of the power supply) places less demands on the power source. The only possible challenge is if the voltage drops below what's safe for the amp (typically about 105 volts), the SMPS/class D amp will shut down to protect against damage (if well designed) but the linear amp might continue working until it possibly blows up. Pick which failure (fault) mode suits your personal preference.

Yep. Had a brownout on a gig and the only thing that powered up was the keyboardist's older JBL monitor. The PA and my rig wouldn't power up.

 

[MrCash]

Says who? I don't recall me ever saying this, nor do I try to give anybody the sound of some ancient valve amp in the products I design.

Never said you did???
Plenty of amps try and get a vintage or valve sound. There seems to be amps that try emulate an old school sound, amps that do both modern and old then there's amps that just do modern. Also not forgetting modelling amps which mainly try modelling amps of the past.

Im sure you don't design your amps to sound like an ancient valve amp. But can they not do old school tones like Motown, rock, or valve grind like amps of old?

If players had evolved so much amps would of and they would sound totally different to what they do now. If you ask me amps sound the same as they did ten or more odd years ago.
Or were amps before that all crap and no one knew what they were doing?

 

[bass151]

Mr cash, I don't think anyone on here knows what your looking for and it appears you don't either. Exactly what are you trying to get to the bottom of? Where are you going to the top? You have had advice from some of the best in the business, and don't listen. You claim certain class D amps don't compare to some old Trace elliot's. Well the class D amps you mentioned that were outperformed, were all the lowest priced units on the market (except the Markbass). You also mentioned the Ampeg Br2e as a reference, which in it's time was the bottom of the line in Ampegs entry level line. Really? If you are so discriminating, why don't you spend some coin on the better or even mid line class D amps. Sound like your looking for a Porsche at Chevy prices.

 

[MrCash]

You don't say?


Not arrogant... just tired. Hope that's okay. I have no vested interest in bringing you current on amplification... and I realize that. So given the choice between dealing with what appears to be your attitude and leaving you to your own devices, I'm taking the easy way out.

Ok slightly disappointed in your response

 

[MrCash]

Mr cash, I don't think anyone on here knows what your looking for and it appears you don't either. Exactly what are you trying to get to the bottom of? Where are you going to the top? You have had advice from some of the best in the business, and don't listen. You claim certain class D amps don't compare to some old Trace elliot's. Well the class D amps you mentioned that were outperformed, were all the lowest priced units on the market (except the Markbass). You also mentioned the Ampeg Br2e as a reference, which in it's time was the bottom of the line in Ampegs entry level line. Really? If you are so discriminating, why don't you spend some coin on the better or even mid line class D amps. Sound like your looking for a Porsche at Chevy prices.

Going to the top to get to the bottom of something is British sense of humour.
I'm wanting answers or theories on why some think class d amps are weaker.

And by the way I have a very good class d amp that is top of the line. I had to go top of the line as the others I mentioned were not going to cut it. Which if amp tech has moved on so much then lower, mid priced units should be able to compete with a mid range amp from the 90s!

Anyhow I feel like I'm just arguing with people all I wanted was to read others opinions, learn something which I have.
But the thread has went wrong for me and bit tired of it now.

 

[agedhorse]

I design amps to perform the way the customers/players want them to perform. I don't pretend to reinvent some "old school wheel" type amp but to provide the player with a set of tools that fit a wide range of needs and conditions.

I don't know where you are coming from, or why you persist in making some pretty far fetched comparisons and then drawing equally odd conclusions. The more you say, the more confusing it becomes, that's not a good way to learn (if you have any interest in learning).

 

[seamonkey]

And i noticed in my quest for knowledge there is a thread currently over on Basschat now where someone has tested there 30w b15 to be louder than a markbass 500w head @ 300w!

I was curious and looked for the thread. Must be this one
Invalid Link Removed

I think you need to go back and read it again
And look at previous posts above where cabinet efficiency (sensitivity) is mentioned.

 

[smeet]

Perhaps part of the perceived differences stem from many folks pairing class D products with the more compact cabinets that may not have the same low end extension?

Not in my case. I've run various micro class D, hybrid, all-tube, and other amps through my fEARfuls, Dually, Baer ML212, Ampeg SVT 212AV, Acme B210, and others. Through all of them, there is something I find lacking in all the small amps so far (including the Eden, which is NOT a class D). I want to emphasize that all the amps I own now sound absolutely excellent. And I only complain because as a TB member I like to whine about minuscule meaninglessnesses. But I hear a difference that SOUNDS like it's in the low end.

My class D micros sound huge though the Dually. But switch them out for a SVT-II or Super Bassman 300, and the impact of the low notes is a revelation. I can't correct for the problem with eq. A hugely bass-boosted sound with the KXB500 (for example) sounds great, but it still lacks the solidity of a "flat" signal from the SVT (even though it sounds much bassier). I don't know how else to describe it.

I don't feel this is a class D problem. My Alembic pre into a Crest ProLite 3.0 has heft. But I think that is largely from the amazing sound of that preamp.

I have high hopes for my incoming Reiner Classic 1200. If that thing can't bust up the class stereotypes, I will be greatly surprised and saddened.

 

[MrCash]

I design amps to perform the way the customers/players want them to perform. I don't pretend to reinvent some "old school wheel" type amp but to provide the player with a set of tools that fit a wide range of needs and conditions.

I don't know where you are coming from, or why you persist in making some pretty far fetched comparisons and then drawing equally odd conclusions. The more you say, the more confusing it becomes, that's not a good way to learn (if you have any interest in learning).

Because I'm now on the defensive which doesn't help.
Ok what are my far fetched comparisons and what are my equally odd conclusions.
And see if we can get back on track.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Ok slightly disappointed in your response

TBH I've felt the same about many of your posts. You have people trying to help you and in return you're dismissive, as if you have an understanding when all you seem to have are beliefs based at best on anecdotal evidence vs. actual experience. You don't seem to appreciate actual experience so... cool.

As a former owner of three original B-15 combos and a couple of LMII heads the idea that the Ampeg is louder, barring some silliness with the cab, was pretty funny. Thanks.

 

[MrCash]

I was curious and looked for the thread. Must be this one
Invalid Link Removed

I think you need to go back and read it again
And look at previous posts above where cabinet efficiency (sensitivity) is mentioned.

Yes. And of course I get that, but plenty say you can gig the markbass combo on its own where most will say the b15 is not a gigging amp.

And he says in the thread he tried them with the same cab!