Does class D have the Heft of SS

[Thoxig]

No you've just been saying I'm wrong.
I have brought up evidence (not of mine) that says something opposite.
Are you saying all those people are wrong?

Yes.

An opinion being commonly held does not make it more true. Similarly, an opinion that you have strong feelings about is not more (or less) true. Just because it used to be generally accepted that the earth was flat ... didn't make it true.

While I often find TB silliness entertaining, your dogged pursuit of nonsense is kind of irritating. If you don't actually have something useful to say, just listen - all of us get much more out of fewer, but more thoughtful, posts. The level of discourse here places TB a notch above most forums. Perhaps you should take an example from my miniscule post-count?

 

[Joebone]

Perhaps part of the perceived differences stem from many folks pairing class D products with the more compact cabinets that may not have the same low end extension?

I don't think so. I've been using Audiokinesis Thunderchild (4-ohm, original) 1-12 and 1-15 speakers for the last few years. Not the most efficient cabinets and certainly compact, but they reach low and clean - the poor man's Meyer Sound cabinets. I'm generally digging my A/B amps more than the Class D candidates - including a sweet GB 600, which is a PITA form factor for the way I roll, but a great sounding amp.

To be clear, I have plenty of situations where Class D is more convenient. But when I can, without undue hassle, I'll be bringing A/B.

 

[R Baer]

If things have changed so much then why are companies often (not always) trying to give you the sound of some ancient valve amp....

Why do almost all modern basses still copy the Fender P-Bass or Jazz bass in their design? Simple. Leo defined "the sound of bass" right out of the gate. He also set the design standard for almost every bass that has followed. I have the same opinion about amps. Ampeg, in my opinion, defined the sound of bass with their early products like the B-15 and SVT. So when us manufactures talk about delivering vintage tones, what we are really talking about is delivering a classic tone. One we all are familiar with and associate with the sound of our instrument.

As far as valves go, keep in mind that the earliest amps, radios, TV's were all tube powered. So again, when you talk about the tones that defined our instrument from day one, tubes were part of the equation. Tubes provide all sorts of wonderful coloration and overtones that work beautifully with our instrument and many of us still prefer having tubes in the circuit for the goodness they impart on our tone, myself included.

Let's face it, for all the modern innovations going on right now, the tone of of our instrument has changed very little over it's history. So, while companies keep putting out these amazingly hi-tech little boxes full of all this wiz bang, high tech gadgetry, the sound they are producing still hasn't fallen very far from the tree. Most of the modern innovation has gone into products that deliver the tones we are familiar with in a smaller and lighter package. So, all this new modern gear has some real advantages, but at the end of the day, most of us still want their bass to sound pretty much the way it did 50 years ago.

 

[rodl2005]

Damn straight! I don't give a rats tail what type of amp amplifies my bass. ..as long as I get a tone & feel that I like, can work with and the pleases the heck outta me. ..I'm a happy camper. It just happens that what pleases me is good quality or well designed all tube amps and, luckily for my lazy days. .some class D amps.
I certainly have nothing against ANY other type of amp, for, thankfully, we all have different tastes.

 

[blastbass]

I use a crown xls1500 and it's got more than enough heft when paired with various preamps. Takes a little time to get the right balance and avoid hard clipping but the results are worth it. Another benefit is that since these amps are relatively transparent, the sound one has dialled in to get from the cab is more identical to what is sent to the PA.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yeah re read I said that some others who have posted on this thread are disagreeing with all the large amount of anecdotal evidence that I have brought up and they have told me its all rubbish and I'm saying in disagreeing they are wrong to write all that opinion off.

So they should pretend they don't disagree with it? If I had an opinion that was based on someone else's opinion I'd keep it to myself.

And what large amount of anecdotal evidence are you referring to?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nobody takes a back seat to me in their love for the B-15, but I've owned two, still have one, and I used to own one of those CMD 121p Markbass combos, and the Markbass combo was clearly louder. Was not even close. The B-15's sounded better and that's why I still have one and don't have any Markbass gear anymore, but let's get real...the Markbass combo has over 10x the RMS wattage!

I loved my B-15s too but that love didn't make me delusional. I never gigged with mine because I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have noticed that I was destroying them until it was too late. My last one was tweaked by my friend Cesar Diaz before he passed and it was the best B-15 I'd ever heard.

BTW I think you might mean that you don't take a back seat to anyone...

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have actually thought the same thing too. While cab and speaker design have improved you can't beat the physics.

What does that mean? I know what it looks like but I also know that may be unintentional.

 

[Brad Johnson]

No you've just been saying I'm wrong.
I have brought up evidence (not of mine) that says something opposite.
Are you saying all those people are wrong?

Are you saying they can't be?

Your evidence has been beyond weak... yet you still hang your hat on it. Why?

As far as me just saying you are wrong, I actually went back and looked through all of my responses to you and guess what?

You're wrong. Funny how circular that is.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yes.

An opinion being commonly held does not make it more true. Similarly, an opinion that you have strong feelings about is not more (or less) true. Just because it used to be generally accepted that the earth was flat ... didn't make it true.

While I often find TB silliness entertaining, your dogged pursuit of nonsense is kind of irritating. If you don't actually have something useful to say, just listen - all of us get much more out of fewer, but more thoughtful, posts. The level of discourse here places TB a notch above most forums. Perhaps you should take an example from my miniscule post-count?

Already tried that. He thinks he knows things so he ignores people who actually do know things but also asks them to teach him... apparently in a non-verbal format. Because the answers he's getting are bouncing off repeatedly.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That is reasonable.
I just wanted general opinions. But I felt like people are trying to tell me there opinion as fact, so I have put forward what the other side think. I tried to explain its not always my opinion.
Some members have went deeper with the science. I appreciate that I have learnt something. It is still not clear why some are on the other side of the fence on class d.

The answer is ice cream.

Some people like chocolate, some like vanilla. Some like both. Some like neither. When you decide on whether or not to eat ice cream, do you care about those opinions? If so, my sympathies. I can see why you're having such a hard time with your topic.

Face it, there are variables you clearly aren't considering as you take in corroborating opinions. How much weight would you put in an opinion that tube amps suck because someone tried one with two 4 ohm cabs (even though the minimum rating was 8 ohms) and it got damaged? How much weight would you put in someone's opinion who ran a class D bass amp with a less than optimal load and then complained about those results? Or someone who does a massive midrange cut on an amp and then complains about the lack of mids in a particular cab. I've seen hundreds of people over the years who are very ignorant about the products they use. Unfortunately ignorant people often tend to be very vocal and love to blame the "obvious" thing whether it's the actual problem or not. You have an opportunity to not be one of those people... why not take it?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't think so. I've been using Audiokinesis Thunderchild (4-ohm, original) 1-12 and 1-15 speakers for the last few years. Not the most efficient cabinets and certainly compact, but they reach low and clean - the poor man's Meyer Sound cabinets. I'm generally digging my A/B amps more than the Class D candidates - including a sweet GB 600, which is a PITA form factor for the way I roll, but a great sounding amp.

To be clear, I have plenty of situations where Class D is more convenient. But when I can, without undue hassle, I'll be bringing A/B.

He said: Perhaps part of the perceived differences stem from many folks pairing class D products with the more compact cabinets that may not have the same low end extension?

So... he's not talking about the cabs you described. So you probably aren't one of those many folks.

 

[Joebone]

He said: Perhaps part of the perceived differences stem from many folks pairing class D products with the more compact cabinets that may not have the same low end extension?

So... he's not talking about the cabs you described. So you probably aren't one of those many folks.

Forgive me, I have erred.

But I still prefer A/B into any of the cabinets I've owned…

 

[chris_b]

I remember back when I was told my SS amp didn't sound as good as a Tube amp, now I'm being told my D class amps don't sound as good as either.

Funny thing is, I sound better now that I did then.

 

[vigor&kandor]

What kind of cab(s)? What impedance? IME the LMIII is better suited for a 4 ohm load than 8.

Two Mesa boogie diesel 1x15s with 3015s. Head was running at 4 ohms

 

[MrCash]

Ok I have a slightly different question.
Does anyone think that there will always be traditional solid state transistor amp around. Or will class d take over in a few years?
Leaving just valve amps as an alternative.

 

[Razman]

Ok I have a slightly different question.
Does anyone think that there will always be traditional solid state transistor amp around. Or will class d take over in a few years?
Leaving just valve amps as an alternative.

Here is the same question: does anyone think that there will always be internal-combustion engines in cars or will electrics take over in a few years? (Gotta be a thread on this somewhere...)

I don't think so, not with as many classic car enthusiasts out there.

Re: the thread topic - if i can find a class D I can live with I'd buy it, if not I'll stick with my Mesa 400.

 

[CL400Peavey]

I have 5,400 watts of amplification. Two 400 watt tube amps, a 600 watt lead sled, a 3,000 watt rack set up, and a 1,000 watt micro both class D.

They all sound good to me, all have heft. If the sound doesn't have heft, I am not blaming amps.

 

[BbbyBld]

Ok I have a slightly different question.
Does anyone think that there will always be traditional solid state transistor amp around. Or will class d take over in a few years?

Well, not to be a smarta$$, but the class D stuff I've worked on has pretty much all been traditional solid state.

If by "traditional", you mean class AB with BJT transistors, yes, I think it will always be around.

Sometimes class D doesn't make sense for some products for cost and/or performance reasons. For example, class D makes a lot of sense for small battery powered things like smart phones where the goals are high efficiency, small size, light weight, etc. Obviously, class D makes tons of sense for a 2000W pro audio amp. In the range of 5 to 100W, class AB can be way more cost effective. In that power range, class D may save on space, but it may not really save much weight over class AB.

Class D requires special components for things like filtering the speaker output, and filtering the AC line. Some of the other components must be higher performance to work at higher frequencies. Class D amps can have difficulty with FCC certifications. Class AB amps require more heat sinking aluminum and often more output devices. The lower efficiency of class AB requires more power supply (copper in the transformer, for example). In the power range I mentioned of 5-100W, the cost differences between class AB and class D become blurry sometimes.

Peavey and Crest still make higher power class AB amps because there's a market for them. Some large sound companies still prefer to use them.

I know automotive analogies are disliked here sometimes, but I think you could almost look at it as carburetor vs fuel injection. Done properly, fuel injection is technically better in every way possible, but the carburetor is still widely used where it makes sense.

 

[MrCash]

Well, not to be a smarta$$, but the class D stuff I've worked on has pretty much all been traditional solid state.

If by "traditional", you mean class AB with BJT transistors, yes, I think it will always be around.

Sometimes class D doesn't make sense for some products for cost and/or performance reasons. For example, class D makes a lot of sense for small battery powered things like smart phones where the goals are high efficiency, small size, light weight, etc. Obviously, class D makes tons of sense for a 2000W pro audio amp. In the range of 5 to 100W, class AB can be way more cost effective. In that power range, class D may save on space, but it may not really save much weight over class AB.

Class D requires special components for things like filtering the speaker output, and filtering the AC line. Some of the other components must be higher performance to work at higher frequencies. Class D amps can have difficulty with FCC certifications. Class AB amps require more heat sinking aluminum and often more output devices. The lower efficiency of class AB requires more power supply (copper in the transformer, for example). In the power range I mentioned of 5-100W, the cost differences between class AB and class D become blurry sometimes.

Peavey and Crest still make higher power class AB amps because there's a market for them. Some large sound companies still prefer to use them.

I know automotive analogies are disliked here sometimes, but I think you could almost look at it as carburetor vs fuel injection. Done properly, fuel injection is technically better in every way possible, but the carburetor is still widely used where it makes sense.

Interesting.
With the carbs thing, they are really only used in certain applications. No mass manufactured modern car engine really uses a carb or they are very few and far between.
I wonder if there will be a future market for boutique transistor amps or small production runs. Where like class d will be like fuel injection.

I should of asked in my original post. Do you prefer class d or transistors amps, why and what difference do you hear?. Instead of the heft question.
Then had a discussion on why they sound different if indeed they do.