Does class D have the Heft of SS

[Joebone]

I've taken the liberty of importing the following quote from Mike Arnopol n another TB thread - it addresses the difference between two Class D power modules, but the factors he uses to describe the functional differences resemble those I've flagged in differentiating Class A/B from Class D:

My experience is the opposite. And my experience is going back and forth between only the power amps sections being changed on MANY gigs. The 1000 blows away the 250 on every level. Except size and price. I've learned that--at least to me---the most important functional part of our sound is the note envelope. How the note starts and stops and the headroom as part of that. That can best be judged in context. As a bassist our ability to drive a band, have good pitch definition, and a bass drum like "thump" at the beginning of a note and a clear stop when a note is muted is the proof of the pudding. Next is tonal balance and distortion. You can best judge the function at volume on a gig.

The 250 sounds great. I've played many amps that use it. A very nice thump at note beginning. If I wasn't comparing it to the 1000 I'd say it's at the top of the class D food chain. But even at medium volumes the 1000 has this beautiful power at note beginning---a noticeable difference. And as volume increases the 250 gets a bit buzzy and distorted. In comparison. Companies are rating the 250 at 800 to 900 watts. The 1000 is rated at 1000. Shouldn't be an appreciable difference. There is. The 1000 stays cleaner, reaches MUCH deeper and exerts more control over the speaker. And the 1000 is stable into 2.67 ohms. The 250 is not designed to do 4 ohms bridged. It can do it with proper heat management but will still be susceptible to crash and burn pounding a 4 ohm load.
Oh---and the fidelity and tonal balance---the 1000 blows the 250 away. This is after playing many gigs with various amps using the 250 and using a separate 250 as just an amp module.

 

[10cc]

Yes.

 

[svtb15]

I think that explains what i have been attempting to say for years .....And i guess you are a bass player so you really get it .. AND Bass Playing is so different than running program material thru the same rig..
so Thank you.

Right. Well, not to sound facetious, but my personal voicing decisions don't involve neutering the lows. I'm a working bass player, and I choose to use basses that sound like basses in the traditional sense. The bands I play in expect me to sound like a bass player in the traditional sense. In other words, I am the customer for amps that bring the "heft". There's a lot of people here who are trying to express the desire for a certain quality in an amp, and have been treated like they don't know what they are talking about. It's real.

If you are talking about the contribution of EQ voicing like bumped up mid bass, my test method still works, unless you are using a ridiculous amount of HPF, which would seem like a huge mistake on a modern amp. I wouldn't expect you to do any extreme filtering at 50Hz, for example.

Anyway, I'll stand by what I said. It ultimately doesn't matter what you do with preamp voicing for this deal. A power section can either deliver the "heft" or it can't (and has nothing to do with the class of amp dammit!). When it can't, it's usually because of the power supply, IME. I figured out this little trick of mine a long time ago using the same amp with the same settings with two different power supplies. It was actually when working on the Tour series head mentioned above. I did not design the power section, and was trying to communicate something I was missing in the lows with my colleague, in the same way many have tried to communicate this over and over. Boosting deep lows or other "voicing" doesn't do anything if the amp/supply can't "push" those frequencies in a way that they can be felt.

By all means, don't listen to what I'm saying either. I was on the fence about giving away that trick.

 

[agedhorse]

Factual note that the 250 module, in a properly executed design, is entirely reliable and not at all "susceptible to crash and burn driving a 4 ohm load".

This statement is a factual misrepresentation, and there are many, many players here who are playing amps using the 250 module at 4 Ohm's.

 

[agedhorse]

I think that explains what i have been attempting to say for years .....And i guess you are a bass player so you really get it .. AND Bass Playing is so different than running program material thru the same rig..
so Thank you.

Who runs program material through a bass amp? That's not how I test the products that I design.

 

[svtb15]

you need to get out more often.. Its not all graphs , charts and science. ..

Who runs program material through a bass amp? That's not how I test the products that I design.

 

[agedhorse]

you need to get out more often.. Its not all graphs , charts and science. ..

Kirk, I'm probably the only bass amp designer in the industry who has spent more than half his time out on the road in that specific environment. I know the touring side of the industry maybe a little too well, and it has driven the concepts of my designs (both bass and pro audio) for decades.

 

[svtb15]

Yes , you tell us that all the time. I am so very happy for you

Kirk, I'm probably the only bass amp designer in the industry who has spent more than half his time out on the road in that specific environment. I know the touring side of the industry maybe a little too well, and it has driven the concepts of my designs (both bass and pro audio) for decades.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes , you tell us that all the time. I am so very happy for you

Well, you were the one suggesting that I get out more often... which I am trying hard NOT to do.

 

[tfer]

I love hearing amateurs argue with professionals.

But then, I'm also the same guy who slows down when driving by car crashes.

 

[MrCash]

I love hearing amateurs argue with professionals.

But then, I'm also the same guy who slows down when driving by car crashes.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I say this with respect.
That the thing is that's the customer saying what they want and think. Isn't that actually what designers and manufacturers should be doing. As well as listening to professional players the technical data and there own ideas of course.
I know that must be a hard thing to do.

So in a way I think it's good the professionals are challenged as long as it's with a little respect on both sides.
There's been many good things that have came about challenging the established.

 

[agedhorse]

There's been many good things that have came about challenging the established.

And I have made a pretty good career challenging the established

 

[tfer]

I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I say this with respect.
That the thing is that's the customer saying what they want and think. Isn't that actually what designers and manufacturers should be doing. As well as listening to professional players the technical data and there own ideas of course.
I know that must be a hard thing to do.

So in a way I think it's good the professionals are challenged as long as it's with a little respect on both sides.
There's been many good things that have came about challenging the established.

Every manufacturer offers something a little different. I chose Hartke, because their offerings appealed to me sonically. Many others choose Ampeg, Genz Benz, GK, etc. I don't have the technical knowledge to explain what I want, I simply try out equipment, and I know what I want, when I hear it.

Agedhorse is doing a wonderful job providing knowledge and insight from a professional POV. He's been patient as he's broken the information into easily digestible pieces, and I appreciate that. However, he's the expert, and the people arguing with him simply look like 8 year olds discussing quantum mechanics with university physics professors.

 

[MrCash]

Every manufacturer offers something a little different. I chose Hartke, because their offerings appealed to me sonically. Many others choose Ampeg, Genz Benz, GK, etc. I don't have the technical knowledge to explain what I want, I simply try out equipment, and I know what I want, when I hear it.

Agedhorse is doing a wonderful job providing knowledge and insight from a professional POV. He's been patient as he's broken the information into easily digestible pieces, and I appreciate that. However, he's the expert, and the people arguing with him simply look like 8 year olds discussing quantum mechanics with university physics professors.

On that basis no public member should question professional politicians then eh? Because they not a politician themselves.

 

[tfer]

Politicians work on our behest. They are OUR employees.

An amp manufacturer offers a product for sale. You are a consumer of his goods. If they don't appeal to you, you find an amp that does.

 

[Brad Johnson]

On that basis no public member should question professional politicians then eh? Because they not a politician themselves.

The mere act of questioning is not the issue.

 

[BadExample]

This will get it done...... JULE Amps M 2500:: 2500w/3200w(peak) Amplifier

But I hear the power supply is kind of a loafer I dig it.

 

[Razman]

Stopped by my local indie shop that had a Mesa D800, an old Fender BXR 300c, and a GK Backline 600. The Mesa had the best sound - great tone. I didn't start a volume war between them but it didn't start getting some volume until I turned it up a bit. The sound reminded me of the M6 I had, but I didn't spend a lot of time with it - just enough to hear it and see how the attack was when I hit some notes hard.

Next was the Fender. BAM - there was the punch I was looking for! Only problem was that it sounded pretty thin - even with the low boost engaged and I was even running it through a Warwick 115. Volume-wise it easily went louder than the Mesa (but again I didn't turn it up all that much). I may try it again through an Eden cab I just acquired, but I didn't care for how it sounded through the Warwick. Also tried it through a GK RBX 410. Better, but tone-wise fell way short of the quality of the Mesa.

Last came the Backline 600. I used to turn my nose up at these (not having tried one) - not anymore. It definitely sounded better than the Fender, has all the controls I could ask for, and even a built-in fuzz (calling it distortion is a stretch, but it wasn't terrible - just different). Well, it was more like a buzz-saw but was still cool. That thing got those 10's working and was rattling the rafters in the place. Had I the extra $$ I would have left with it. They are inexpensive and deliver the goods, and definitely had the 'heft' I felt was missing from the Mesa.

The Mesa still had a better sound but it lacked that initial slam when you first hit a note. I was playing a five string SUB with a pick; it's probably fine when plucking with your fingers but I wouldn't slap with one. The GK shines in that department.

Anyway, just my $.02...

Raz

 

[sratas]

I just bought a walkabout, it will be the least powerful weapon in my arsenal. But heft, feel, and loud are very different things. So I hope for the best

 

[TMARK]

Stopped by my local indie shop that had a Mesa D800, an old Fender BXR 300c, and a GK Backline 600. The Mesa had the best sound - great tone. I didn't start a volume war between them but it didn't start getting some volume until I turned it up a bit. The sound reminded me of the M6 I had, but I didn't spend a lot of time with it - just enough to hear it and see how the attack was when I hit some notes hard.

Next was the Fender. BAM - there was the punch I was looking for! Only problem was that it sounded pretty thin - even with the low boost engaged and I was even running it through a Warwick 115. Volume-wise it easily went louder than the Mesa (but again I didn't turn it up all that much). I may try it again through an Eden cab I just acquired, but I didn't care for how it sounded through the Warwick. Also tried it through a GK RBX 410. Better, but tone-wise fell way short of the quality of the Mesa.

Last came the Backline 600. I used to turn my nose up at these (not having tried one) - not anymore. It definitely sounded better than the Fender, has all the controls I could ask for, and even a built-in fuzz (calling it distortion is a stretch, but it wasn't terrible - just different). Well, it was more like a buzz-saw but was still cool. That thing got those 10's working and was rattling the rafters in the place. Had I the extra $$ I would have left with it. They are inexpensive and deliver the goods, and definitely had the 'heft' I felt was missing from the Mesa.

The Mesa still had a better sound but it lacked that initial slam when you first hit a note. I was playing a five string SUB with a pick; it's probably fine when plucking with your fingers but I wouldn't slap with one. The GK shines in that department.

Anyway, just my $.02...

Raz

The D800 has plenty of heft and slam. The pots are linear unlike most amps, so noon on the master isn't the same as noon on the Fender or GK. The entire range of the pots is useable. Most master volume pots are putting out max I distorted volume at noon. The Mesa can actually go to 10. Just a consideration.

I did a little shoot out two years ago when deciding on a new amp. Warwick LWA 1000, Thunderfunk 550b, Tonehammer 500, Walkabout Scout, and the Mesa Big Block 750 which was being replaced. All through an Eden 410. I kept the Thunderfunk. The Warwick thumped as hard as the Big Block and Thunderfunk. All of the amps had heft, except the Aguilar which ran out of steam as volume went the up.

Now that I've had time with new D amps such as the Mesa and Demeter Minnie, I don't think topology matters. It is down to the individual design and implementation.