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Does class D have the Heft of SS

#101
MrCash said:
Well I know it's different to a standard class d and it uses a toroidal transformer. And it was designed to be superior to the class d amps out at the time.
It's not just class d renamed so I don't think you understand it actually
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Well, since you seem to insist that you KNOW that it's different, and that it uses a toroidal transformer, and "you don't think I understand it actually", maybe we should all learn something about this topic eh?

1. Class T is Tripath's implementation of class D topology. It's just their take, their IP and their registered trademark and nothing more. It's as standard as any other implementation of class D which is just another was of describing any amplifier that uses a combination of PWM, level shifting and LP re-construction. It is just one manufacturer's approach, that's all.

2. Tripath's class T approach has nothing whatsoever to do with toroidal transformers. In fact, I designed a tripath class T implementation based on an SMPS, but there were too many reliability issues with the early (pre-bankruptcy) products.

Here's a good and fairly accurate description of Tripath and their IP, their history, and their challenges: Class-T amplifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I respectfully suggest that you learn a little bit more about any subject that you profess to understand before presenting it as fact. It will be helpful to all involved in the discussion.
 
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#103
MrCash said:
I know he is possibly wrong in this case. I do know it's class d but the design is a bit different (modified) and not just the same as a standard class d amp as he was implying it's just class d renamed class t by a company. There are as my admitted limited understand differences and Aguilar certainly seemed to write that to in there press releases.
Saying all that if it can be explained to me exactly the differences and what is the same I'm willing of course to wind my neck in.
Click to expand...

There is no "standard" Class D amp in the first place. They come in many forms, and some companies come up with their own subset designation, mostly to make you feel good about buying their product. Tripath went bankrupt nearly a decade ago, and Class C was already taken, so the IP owners Cirrus Logic have been sticking to the registered trademark "Class T." I generally avoid quoting Wikipedia, but here's the first sentence in their Class T entry:

"A class-T amplifier is a switching (class-D) audio amplifier, and Class T is a registered trademark for Tripath's amplifier technologies (patent filed on Jun 20, 1996). Similar designs have now been widely adopted by different manufacturers.[1] "
 
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#104
MrCash said:
Listen I've made my argument and I feel I've been fair in what I've said.
I don't have anything against him, but to come on saying something abruptly to me when the company that designed the amp in this case Aguilar are saying something different then I'm going to ask for a clarification on the meaning.
Nothing more
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That's NOT what Aguilar appears to have said. They chose to use a toroidal transformer in their Tripath based product, and that's NOT what makes it class T, and I didn't see that in their claim either.
 
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#105
I think we have a massive misunderstanding here I am talking about, which is the Aguilar the ag500 amp.
And the fact in that case it's different to other class d amp designs in general, because of this from Aguilar.
"The AG 500 is like a Class D amp, but it utilizes switching technology developed by the Tripath Corporation. The Tripath power amp topology, named Class T, modulates the output using a proprietary module that purports to eliminate some of the weaknesses of Class D amps while maintaining the efficiency that’s a hallmark of the technology. Aguilar’s AG 500 uses a Class T output stage and a conventional linear power transformer. "
 
#106
bass151 said:
Someone on here posted that the quality of the 120 volt power cord affects performance of class D amps. Anyone know if this is true. The power cord on my GB Shuttle 9.0 looks pretty wimpy. I'm not sure it's the one that came with the amp.
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That was a joke, based on tongue in cheek references to $1000 power cords that we have laughed about on TB for years.

The power cord that came with your Shuttle is more than adequate, no additional performance would have come to you if we had charged more for a bigger (looking) power cord.
 
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#107
agedhorse said:
That's NOT what Aguilar appears to have said. They chose to use a toroidal transformer in their Tripath based product, and that's NOT what makes it class T, and I didn't see that in their claim either.
Click to expand...

I never said that what makes it class t at all! Read my above reply! I think we have a mix up exactly what I'm talking about
 
#110
MrCash said:
From Aguilar's blurb.
The conventional class AB power amplifier is a tried-and-true design, but one that operates relatively inefficiently, producing enough excess heat to require noisy fans and large heat sinks, which add to an amplifier’s bulk. Class D amps are far more efficient. They produce power by switching transistors on and off at a high frequency using a process called Pulse Width Modulation. The AG 500 is like a Class D amp, but it utilizes switching technology developed by the Tripath Corporation. The Tripath power amp topology, named Class T, modulates the output using a proprietary module that purports to eliminate some of the weaknesses of Class D amps while maintaining the efficiency that’s a hallmark of the technology. Aguilar’s AG 500 uses a Class T output stage and a conventional linear power transformer.
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You can have a Class-D amp witn a toroidal transformer power based power supply, a Class-AB amp wth a switch mode power supply, and even
an all tube Class A amp with a SMPS. Still doesn't make s toroidal transformer necessary for Class T.
 
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#111
agedhorse said:
And, by improving the efficiencies (greatly), this means that the AC service remains stiffer (less voltage sag) and more real power delivered to the load is possible.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting point, Andy.

A related follow up question:

For a bass player in a typical bar band scenario (too much equipment plugged into a single AC circuit in a building that has less than ideal electrical wiring to begin with) would the larger capacitance of an amplifier with an analog (line frequency) power supply perform better during musical peaks than an amp with a switching power supply, (which if I understand it correctly) draws more directly from the AC line?
 
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#113
MrCash said:
I think we have a massive misunderstanding here I am talking about, which is the Aguilar the ag500 amp.
And the fact in that case it's different to other class d amp designs in general, because of this from Aguilar.
"The AG 500 is like a Class D amp, but it utilizes switching technology developed by the Tripath Corporation. The Tripath power amp topology, named Class T, modulates the output using a proprietary module that purports to eliminate some of the weaknesses of Class D amps while maintaining the efficiency that’s a hallmark of the technology. Aguilar’s AG 500 uses a Class T output stage and a conventional linear power transformer. "
Click to expand...
Right, they use a class T power amp and a conventional linear (with wink and a nod to Bob Lee, that would more accurately be termed LINE FREQUENCY) power transformer. They could have chosen to use an SMPS of one form or another as well, but they didn't.
 
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#114
MrCash said:
I think we have a massive misunderstanding here I am talking about, which is the Aguilar the ag500 amp.
And the fact in that case it's different to other class d amp designs in general, because of this from Aguilar.
"The AG 500 is like a Class D amp, but it utilizes switching technology developed by the Tripath Corporation. The Tripath power amp topology, named Class T, modulates the output using a proprietary module that purports to eliminate some of the weaknesses of Class D amps while maintaining the efficiency that’s a hallmark of the technology. Aguilar’s AG 500 uses a Class T output stage and a conventional linear power transformer. "
Click to expand...

Here's my read of Aguilar's marketing material. Class T is Tripaths proprietary class-D design. The AG 500 varies from the Tripath design in that it uses a conventional linear rather than toroidal power transformer.
 
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#115
cfsporn said:
You can have a Class-D amp witn a toroidal transformer power based power supply, a Class-AB amp wth a switch mode power supply, and even
an all tube Class A amp with a SMPS. Still doesn't make s toroidal transformer necessary for Class T.
Click to expand...

Honestly this is the third time I never said the transformer has anything to do with it being class t.
I'm talking directly about the Aguilar ag500 design. And not class t in general.
I thought this was clear.
 
#116
MrCash said:
Well it does use a power supply that are not normally associated with class d amps.
Click to expand...
This is not true as well. There were plenty of other power amps that used "conventional" line frequency transformers, such as the Crown K series as one off the top of my head example.
 
#117
After reading this thread , I'm positive that I have no idea (and it seems there's no consensus, on what 'heft'-in regards to bass tone) even means.

That said, I use class D 'heft(good or bad as it may be)', and my audience does not seem to be affected by it.


:)
 
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#118
"Class-T" is not an official "Classification" of amplifiers it is only a trademark, a Marketing term.

One can take a class-d and make a change, they could call it an improvement, patent the improvement, and give it a new "marketing name" like class-t. In that case Class-T is a derivation of Class-D.

Tripath went bankrupt for reasons I believe they were ahead of their time. There wasn't market acceptance. Cirrus bought the IP and still makes the chips as class-d have more acceptance and sales these days.

Class of an amp doesn't matter anyhow in the sound of the things. All amps these days are well beyond the best of human hearing.

It's a lot of marketing. Maybe amp makers should even market the class since it doesn't matter. It's like publishing "Magnet Weight" for speakers. It doesn't mean anything for the sound.
 
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#119
I remember when steinberger came out with graphite necks. There was a lot of talk about their tone sounding "sterile" or "not organic" compared to wood.

People are biassed to hear what they want to hear. And people are suspicious and afraid of new things, so no matter what you invent there will be a chorus of non believers throwing ambiguous new negative adjectives around

Also when I went out shopping for my first hybrid car. I kept getting the same story about them needing an 8000 dollar battery a few years down the road. Every salesman at a lot that could not offer any kind of a hybrid for sale had that story.

So be suspicious of both the hype and the anti-hype. Trust your own senses.
 
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#120
agedhorse said:
Right, they use a class T power amp and a conventional linear (with wink and a nod to Bob Lee, that would more accurately be termed LINE FREQUENCY) power transformer. They could have chosen to use an SMPS of one form or another as well, but they didn't.
Click to expand...

May I ask in the case of that amp (ag500) the transformer they used makes a difference to a class d or in this case named class t performance.
My original post in regard to the ag500 using a conventional power supply was to ask if it did make a difference. Aguilar said in other stuff that it did and together with the class t part made the amp better than the class d amps of the time.
 

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