Does it matter where stuff is made?

[edbass]

While I agree with your opinion on unions, consumers dictate production... Always have. There's a reason Wal Mart is huge and it's because Americans want cheap ****. Bottom line. Of course some of us will pay for more expensive/higher quality products, but the majority of Americans won't and don't.

Absolutely. But... why can't the US be price competitive on any products vs. the imports?
That long boat ride across the Pacific and all the middlemen and governments that get their "piece" adds considerable costs to any item.
What makes the products we use daily non competitive to manufacture in the US?

 

[JimmyM]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

 

[Tom Howland]

It's not where it is made.
It is how it is made.

 

[Roy Vogt]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

I've thought about this, especially in light of my last post, and I don't think the picture is as black-and-white as I made it. With this in mind, I'm deleting my last post and staying out of this one....

 

[Mastermold]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

I wonder if it's more to do with labor practices in the different countries?

 

[zachoff]

Absolutely. But... why can't the US be price competitive on any products vs. the imports?
That long boat ride across the Pacific and all the middlemen and governments that get their "piece" adds considerable costs to any item.
What makes the products we use daily non competitive to manufacture in the US?

I'd figure the biggest reason is wages and all of the other stuff that goes with being an employee in America (health care, fica, unemployment, etc). If you made McDonalds line wages in Indonesia you'd live pretty large.

On top of that you have land and building costs that are most likely a lot cheaper in Asia, not to mention the taxes are probably less.

Regardless, I'm all for a globalized economy. It's the least-costly thing we can do to help end poverty in those countries and it benefits Americans by lowering the costs of the stuff we buy.

 

[JimmyM]

I've thought about this, especially in light of my last post, and I don't think the picture is as black-and-white as I made it. With this in mind, I'm deleting my last post and staying out of this one....

Roy, you were the last person I was thinking of. Human rights violations are a very legit reason for not wanting to do business with a country.

 

[itsalljustaride]

I wonder if it's more to do with labor practices in the different countries?

Labor practices and regulations (environmental regs as well) have a large effect on price, that's for sure, but on perception by "USA or Bust!" consumers? I doubt it. Japan had great labor practices in the late 80's and 90's but you still had xenophobic nitwits yelling about "rice-burners" and "chink-mobiles" (forgetting of course that "chink" is a racist epithet against Chinese, and not Japanese, but hey, we're not really dealing with people interested in nuance).

 

[JimmyM]

I wonder if it's more to do with labor practices in the different countries?

Roy was the first person who brought up labor practices as having any bearing on his decisions. Till then, I don't see that anyone brought that up. Might have missed it, but I didn't see it till Roy.

 

[itsalljustaride]

Roy, you were the last person I was thinking of. Human rights violations are a very legit reason for not wanting to do business with a country.

Since I'm pretty sure this is referring to China, I'll say this: The problem with a general boycott of any and all Made-in-China products is that it's isn't effective, in more ways than one. It isn't economically effective, at least not so far, since the sheer amount of difference in price makes it hard for some people to even think about boycotting. The poor always have to compromise their values.

It also isn't effective since not all products in China are produced under poor labor conditions. Some Chinese workers earn a very good standard of living for their country, relatively speaking. Some companies make sure to stay within labor regulations, and produce goods that aren't any worse environmentally speaking than those made here.

Because of that, you could be boycotting a product that is, for all in tense and purposes, equally as socially responsible as those made in the US. If companies followed the labor laws in China they'd be fine, but that's the problem with China, they have fine laws, they just lack enforcement.

I work with a Chinese human rights organization on occasion, and even they don't recommend a general boycott of Chinese goods for the reasons above.

On the other hand, if you KNOW that a certain company is producing goods in a socially irresponsible fashion (which is hard to know) then by all means, run them up a flagpole.

 

[klokker]

Thank you.

I, for one, am getting tired of being blamed for the economy of this country going down the tubes when I buy a Japanese car or a Chinese bass. Poor manufacturing caused by greed at the top levels of management is what caused it, not little Jimmy Miller in Apopka, FL buying a Nissan. But all the rah rah America first people don't want to accept that. Tough. Make a good product and I'm there. Make a bad product and I don't care if you're my next door neighbor...I won't buy it.

+1. I used to be gung ho, buy American. No longer.

I struggle more with buying locally vs. buying on-line. I'll often pay more for the same product if its a local business that treats you half decently.

 

[4Mal]

Do Indonisian CNC machines require more rice than US CNC's require wheat ?

Short answer to the OP... in terms of the product you recieve ? It's more a matter of who and their design/QA abilities than the where. In terms of your world view - that's up to each of us.

One topic that comes up endlessly on this site is 'can I do it cheaper' ? endlessly ... If you think about it, we collectively drive business to the lowest cost provider. That may not necessarily be the best answer everytime...

 

[itsalljustaride]

+1. I used to be gung ho, buy American. No longer.

I struggle more with buying locally vs. buying on-line. I'll often pay more for the same product if its a local business that treats you half decently.

+1 This ^

You do a lot more good buying ANYTHING at a local store that pays your neighbors salary than you do discriminating between country of origin, I think.

 

[edbass]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

Do you generally hang with Crackers down there in Florida?
Racism is pure ignorance of reality, therefore to be racist is to be ignorant in my book. Regardless of which race an individual may be.
I think the Asian bias regarding this subject is because of the overwhelming disparity of Asian imports to European imports because of the lack of competitive advantage in importing European good relative to importing Asian goods.
Ashdown's new tube amps are coming from Great Britain, if they are sucessful in the US market IMO that will be a good test of competitive US manufacturing in musical goods. The exchange rate alone puts British goods at a disadvantage.
Of course, that can change overnight.

 

[JimmyM]

Ed, I try not to hang with crackers in Fla, but they're pretty ubiquitous

 

[edbass]

One topic that comes up endlessly on this site is 'can I do it cheaper' ? endlessly ... If you think about it, we collectively drive business to the lowest cost provider. That may not necessarily be the best answer everytime...

Whew! I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed...

Interestingly, my forum experiences would indicate that we bass players are overall more “low rent” when it comes to gear than our guitar brethren; i.e., Talkbassers regularly post about “cheapest rigs”, how to "fix" the headstocks on $150 Fender copies, “amps under $xxx” and thread after thread after thread about how you can build better than “overpriced” commercially available speakers in your garage, or out design professionals by using a free computer program, whereas more folks at The Gear Page and other guitar oriented forums seem to realize that quality is where it’s at and that it doesn’t come cheap.

 

[edbass]

Ed, I try not to hang with crackers in Fla, but they're pretty ubiquitous

I always look for the silver lining, at least they are becoming less ubiquitous with the passing years!

 

[JimmyM]

I make no apologies for wanting to do things cheaper. I have nothing against those who pay very high prices for their gear. But the more I spend, the less I keep, so yeah, I want the best deal I can get and I make no apologies for it.

 

[not_jason]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

It might sound silly, but I honestly think that a lot of this goes back to World War II. Of course Germany and Italy (both of which you mentioned specifically) were also involved in that, but America's part in the war had a lot to do with fighting the Japanese. As a result, a lot of people in my Grandfathers' generation, right or wrong, did not care for Japan.

As it happens, they were also one of the last generations to care where things were built, and they lived long enough to see Japan gain prominence in the American marketplace. I learned a lot of my values from my grandfathers, so in my case, it took a long time before I really questioned why we were singling japan out as the enemy, but not too worried about buying something European. In my case, it wasn't because I was racist, it was because I was following my elders' lead, but without an adjusted perspective to suit the changing times.

 

[thumpbass1]

My perspective about the electronic side of things got more serious when the maker of my ICD implant device, a device that combines both a pacemaker and defib unit together, sent me a warning that there might be a possible problem due to a run of bad Chinese made capacitors that shortened the battery life considerably, and, or possible failure, etc, and my model series was listed. I won't name the company involved, but it's had some serious legal issues in the past few years that have been made public in the medical community, mainly due to the failure of some it's devices, and I'll leave it that. A lot it's issues got underway before the company was bought out by it's current owners who are stuck with the headaches now of cleaning things up.

The good news is that my device seems to be functioning normally, and the company is striving to clean things up and straighten up their q.c issues, and monitor the heart patients who got these devices. What bugs me was that were actual incidents of failure found all due to poor q.c. in the manufacturing run of a critical component, in a device that is designed to help save the life of a patient with the device if they should ever need it! It shouldn't have happened in the first place! I don't care if the capacitors used were made in Spain or China as long as there is a high standard of quality applied during the manufacturing process that is in place to reduce the failure rate of said components to a strict minimum level. With that said it's not the country of origin that concerns me of where something is made, but what the track record is of the quality of what is being made. Crappy stuff get's condemned quickly and loudly.

With bass amps and other gear it's easy. If something is a pile o' junk we musicians will be talking about it, post on forums about it, and any of our friends employed in the local music stores who see the warranty problems and returns, will talk about it too. If something is worthy of being praised, even if it's budget gear made in China or anywhere else, we'll gladly tell others of that as well. Quality products will always stand out no matter where they are made.