Does it matter where stuff is made?

[MNAirHead]

your point is valid and no offense taken at all, but i'll clarify my thought to better communicate it because i'm speaking of something that's rarely considered--shipping goods from one side of the earth to the other isn't sustainable...it has positives for certain economies, but holistically, it's counterintuitive to build something in china that could be built in NY only to ship it to NY for sale and usage...profitable, yes of course, and there are positives for certain people in the short term

You're 100% right.. when energy was expensive we saw a mad dash back (interest) to production in this hemisphere.

I'd predict a continued emphasis in Brazillian industrial production.

Thanks for the discussion -- reminds me of Grad School.

 

[ksandvik]

Now, based on my limited purchased of some Made in Indonesia bass and electric guitars. To start with, you need to do your own initial QA and find the good ones from the big batch produced. Secondly, you need to take it to a technician to do the final finish, adjustments and so forth. In some cases this makes sense if you let's say paid $400 or so for the initial instrument and $80 or so for the adjustments. Higher up in the price range I think it's just easier to get an instrument built in USA or Japan with higher QA controls and final finish added to the product.

Or then you could do all this yourself and save a lot of money. Especially if you are intending on doing a bigger modification to the instrument -- then I think getting a mid-range bass or guitar is a good starting point.

As for the below $400 guitars and bass guitars -- pure trash in my ears (and eyes.) SX is of course a huge exception, of some reason they managed to build really good bass guitars for that price range.

 

[musicelectronix]

Ok, I am gonna throw something else to the table.

You guys are constantly talking about quality control and I can see legit points on both sides. Yes, the QC can be improved at far east. And yes, there are "examples" of decent manufacturers over there. How about culture? Let me put it this way: Do you think i.e. France, Turkey or Russia would build more or less identical factories to make Swiss watches? They certainly can. Does that mean anybody can match up the quality of Swiss watches? Certainly not. Because those guys have been manufacturing watches long before industrial revolution and they learned it by doing it for all that time. They created "a watch making culture".

Same thing goes for cosmetics and France. Hold on! Same argument is also valid for musical instruments and USA. Why do you think there are 100 times more local luthiers in USA than the rest of the world? Because America builds instruments, this has always been that way since the invention of solid body guitars. So.. It doesn't matter how much you improve your methods or how much you train workers. Overseas instrument manufacturing will NEVER match the quality of American counterparts, at least not in this century. Of course you might give some examples of decent instrument brands in Europe, but the exceptions do not change the rule.

 

[scarified]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

Let the record show that I have nothing against Italians. However, I don't play a Markbass for the same reason I don't drive a Ferrari - there is a better British offering.

 

[Rocky]

Originally Posted by JimmyM View Post
I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

I try to buy American because the quality, availability, and style are usually more to my liking. Additionally here in the U.S. these instruments tend to hold their value more than import brands. You wont hear as much criticism regarding European instruments as Japanese instrument because there are more Japanese made instruments available here than from other parts of the world. I really resent your statement that those of us who choose to buy US brands are racists. I do take pride in my country, and I would much rather support those that live and work here, but not because I dislike other races or cultures. The love of ones homeland does not constitute racism. I do not decide which products to purchase solely because they are made here in the U.S. However, when I can justify the cost, and the quality is the same or superior, I will buy products made in the U.S because I care about the workers welfare in my country.

 

[coreyfyfe]

I have a question here...

Do Americans who believe in "Buy USA at all costs" also resent countries like Italy or Germany or is it just Asian countries? I don't hear nearly the amount of venom about manufacturing in those countries like I do about Asia. I'm rarely one to play the racism card, but I can't help thinking that a little racism enters into it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. And to be totally honest, the vast majority of people I know who are into the "USA or bust" way of thinking are most definitely racist, not even a question about it.

Multi-part answer for you. I, for one, am not a "buy USA at all cost" type of person. I have my price range, and I get whatever I like the most within my price range. I would say there is a bit of racism built into it, but it's not necessarily run of the mill overt racism, but is more likely underwritten by innate xenophobia. I have friends who are the "USA!!1!" type, but it has to do with their upbringing just as much as their personality. One particular friend spent his younger days in the mid-west, and overall is very against anything changing the country as it is in his mind, whether that be manufacturing locations/practices, ethnic diversity, or anything else. So for him, buying american is just one way of hanging onto his belief in the US as it's own entity instead of a part of a world economy. However, I'd say IMO, for this friend and others I know who share this set of beliefs, their is certainly a rank order to what is acceptable, mainly US > Western Europe/Canada > Eastern Europe/Russia/Japan > Mexico > the rest of Asia.

I will say that my only personal experience with Chinese industry has been related to the pharmaceutical industry, and the company we contracted with had some problems following protocols, even those very clearly laid out and agreed upon.

 

[musicelectronix]

I try to buy American because the quality, availability, and style are usually more to my liking. Additionally here in the U.S. these instruments tend to hold their value more than import brands. You wont hear as much criticism regarding European instruments as Japanese instrument because there are more Japanese made instruments available here than from other parts of the world. I really resent your statement that those of us who choose to buy US brands are racists. I do take pride in my country, and I would much rather support those that live and work here, but not because I dislike other races or cultures. The love of ones homeland does not constitute racism. I do not decide which products to purchase solely because they are made here in the U.S. However, when I can justify the cost, and the quality is the same or superior, I will buy products made in the U.S because I care about the workers welfare in my country.

+1 I wasn't born in USA, but I support this statement fully. That should at least say something about how unfounded that rather serious accusation is. No disrespect intended at all, I am talking about your remark; not the person who said this.

Boy, I really don't want to be banned

 

[synaesthesia]

It's Xenophobia to varying degrees pure and simple, not racism. It wont go away. You get it everywhere and in all eras of human civilsation. It also happens in 'reverse', the Chinese are also suspicious of the Americans or anyone else in various ways. So were the Greeks of the so called Barbarians, and the Romans of the Goths, and vice versa. The 'global' world today is no different to the oikumene of the Roman world, and what passes for a global economy is in reality a pax americana, no differetn to a pax romana of the ancient world.

The MIM Fenders and MIA Fenders will involve some varying degree of contribution of people from either side of the border, and for all the claim about supporting an American workforce, many of that is a melting pot of people from all over, both illegal and legal, working in a geographical boundary. In the case of Fender MIA and MIM, I am fairly certain Mexicans or people of Mexican origin are working on both. Even the venerated vintage Fender instruments and amps were built with a workforce that comprised hispanics in the 50s.

You can't escape it now. Component manufacturing always shifts to the lowest denominator and even in Asian 'manufacturing' you have assembly of components that come from other parts of the Asia, and other parts of the world.

 

[coreyfyfe]

You can't escape it now. Component manufacturing always shifts to the lowest denominator and even in Asian 'manufacturing' you have assembly of components that come from other parts of the Asia, and other parts of the world.

Exactly. That's what I said on page 1 . All the parts are coming from the cheapest source, and while it may say made in USA on the back, I doubt every component in there was. I went looking through an online catalog of parts for tube amps after this thread came up, many of the common parts were manufactured outside of the US, and those were for the "top brands," not even the average parts that would be incorporated into a modern amp.

 

[Captain Bob]

I'm just catching back up from this morning, and need to address 'electracoyotes' post that follows one of my own, several pages back. The statement you copied, and possibly took exception too, was not directed at you personally. Having re-read that portion, I can see that it may appear to read in that manner. A hazard of typing inferences on a forum.
My intent was to address the 'reader' and not 'you' as a person with respect to one process of economic philosophy. Perhaps, that could have been italized or placed in quotations.
I needed to publically clarify this point, as there was no intented direction at you.
And, as I stated at the onset, you were on the mark with your comment. Hence, I agreed. Moreover, in a more previous post I stated it is a global economy. So, people are free to choose.
As for the remainder of your post I'm not sure if you're stating the obvious, or asking an actual question. Nonetheless, I'm sure those realities have been debated here for the last 6 pages or so.
Cheers...

 

[MNAirHead]

USA --- Something to think about.....

IF you're the USA at any cost type...

I challenge you to take off 100% of your clothes (including the shoes) and type in the countries of origin.

At one time there were folks in the SouthEast with the same issues stated in this thread.

(now back to my USA basses)

 

[JimmyM]

Hey, I'm just asking.

 

[Kelly Lee]

This discussion does not belong here as it has to do with manufacturing of any type of product and not amps/cabs. It isn't even Misc.

Moved to Off Topic.

 

[JimmyM]

Off topic? those people are brutal!

 

[MJ5150]

I suppose. Some things I prefer to buy from Asia, some things I prefer to buy from the USA. I've had mixed results with Mexican made products, but hardly an issue with food made in Mexico or by real deal Mexicans.

-Mike

 

[MakiSupaStar]

Me neither. My small town has a huuuuuge Walmart, and virtually no other significant retailers. IMO it's unfortunate that in N. Am we have come to expect cheap goods as a right, without thinking much further. When I recently saw a made to measure shirt for 150 bucks, my initial reflex was to recoil at the high price. A friend from Madrid commented that the only reason I'm accustomed to paying 39.99 or less is that the people making those items are (often) paid (much) less than the retail cost of bass strings for a day's work. He noted that I have many shirts in my closet, and asked if only 8 might actually be enough, in which case my total shirt cost would be about the same, and the shirtmaker could be paid a good wage for better quality work. He was right , IMO, and I am struggling (not very successfully) to fight the consumerism that plays to our natural tendency to hoard and is stoked by every ad we see. Humans, as my late father was fond of saying, are only smart enough to be a danger to ourselves and other living things.

Back on topic-good or bad stuff can be produced anywhere, but the trend of producing most stuff elsewhere (from a western perspective) so that it can be sold competitively here is, at best, out of balance and unsustainable in the long term.........just like overall human consumption and population are.

This is an excellent post. It very much describes a Japanese approach to purchases. People often misinterpret their purchasing as brand focus, but the reality is they are more quality focused. This is why you might see what my wife describes as people walking with a thousand dollars. Chicks, have Loius Vuitton (I'm pretty sure I did spell that right) handbags, men might be wearing a rolex, or a suit that's 2k, or girls are wearing boots that cost 1000 bucks tucked into 500 dollar jeans. It's not that they are brand obsessed, but rather they would rather have less quality items rather than more items of less quality. There's also something to be said about brand loyalty too. Even if the product is not much better quality, a person that is a fan of that brand is more likely to cherish and take good care of that item.

Bongo brought up the point of education, and this really is important. There's a reason why Japanese basses rival the quality of the us basses. You can guarantee that the people working the factories in japan have a good basic education as a minimum, have a fairly good standard of living (this translates into quality control - meaning a worker not only has a higher standard for the product, but might actually have some real life experience with the product outside of the factory), and will generally put out a better product as a result.

Culture also plays a big part in a person's work ethic. Again, I bring up the Japanese, because they have such high quality on some of the most mundane things. I can't help but wonder if this is the influence of buddahism. So many Japanese wake up and try to perfect everything they do, whether it's doing laundry, shaping a surfboard, or simply making a pot of tea. Americans by comparison, have a similar basic education, though not nearly as good, but our work ethic is much less homogenized. Perhaps this is because we are much more mixed as a culture. I'm not sure.

Personally, I'm dual citizen, U.S. and British, and my wife is Japanese. My wife consciously tries to not buy stuff made in China, or some place where it's population is outsourced labor. Especially food. So much of the seaweed we eat comes from China. Seems minor when you consider the fact that not very many people in the US eat seaweed, but when you consider that most seaweed comes from the waters being fed by the same rivers that have all these factories upstream (that also don't adhere to the same environmental standards) this seaweed is a scary prospect.

Then there's the idea of keeping the money here, when we are in a depression, which in turn keeps jobs and companies afloat, and this notion tends to sit well with me. I try to do it as much as possible. With chicks I preach quantity over quality, but when it comes to products and their consumption I'm the opposite.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Does it matter? Yes and no.

I appreciate things that are still made in the US and other Western countries by companies that make the effort to actually do it right. (Not all do.) It's still possible to make good products profitably while still providing good working conditions, decent pay, etc., though many business leaders aren't interested.

I don't begrudge developing countries the opportunity to make and sell products to improve their economical stature, but I'm aware that the quality could vary.

 

[bmc]

Interesting discussion. I sit on the fence with this for the following reasons.

The musical instrument manufacturing in Asian is developing. As they produce more, they will and are investing in new machginery, new technology. It's the wave in China in so many sectors of manufacturing. They are getting better. They are acquiring expertise and their quality control should improve.

That being said, I will always buy a European car. I cannot apply my argument in the above paragragh to the auto industry with exception to Japan. Cars made elsewhere don't seem to measure up.

I think the way to go is on an item by item basis to evaluate.