Does it matter where stuff is made?

[Thor]

Yeah, I have opinions on this too.

For the record, the industry I work in - seafood - now has
most of its processing done in China.

Just had a request from Wally World and sent in documentation
from a third party QC audit on our
contract production plant. The place is better than
a hospital. You could eat off the floor.

If you think the Japanese, who have financed and invested
heavily in SE Asia; the Koreans, who dominate quality in the
area; the Chinese who have surpassed all other manufacturing
nations in diligence, quality control, HACCP and GMP
production are shoddy producers you are a bit behind the curve
and mistaken about their production and quality control capabilities.

Other emerging economies such as Vietnam have vastly
increased their quality control and production capabilities
in the past few years as well.

India has a very close eye on the Chinese economic emergence
and is trying to position itself as the next powerful emerging
global economy. There is much envy there at the Chinese success
in the last decade.

One a side topic:

One thing I have noted it the food industries is that now
focus HAS shifted to water quality.

I grew up on the Hudson River in NY in the 60's and I can
assure you that the water there above NYC was so polluted
that recreation, fishing and water potability was not an option
then. The smell was onerous. It is way better now (them
upstate polluters use less stinky chems now, I think.)

We have cleaned up our rivers and water slowly but surely
because we had to, not because business wanted to. I
foresee the same trends abroad even though they lag the
USA and EU by many years. Consumer demand is making that
happen IME.


One final thing:

Please be mindful of the OVERSEAS PRODUCTION
sticky.

IF YOU HAVE NOT READ IT, PLEASE DO!

I REALLY hate giving out infractions, so please don't put
me or my fellow mods in that position.



Thanks
Thor

 

[TAZ]

Manufacturing is driven by engineering and design. A quality product can be made anywhere. The difference is profit margin. Envirnomental control, health and safety is a contributing factor to "the margin". You make your choices, there is a high cost in buying the "inexpensive".

Buy products built/manufactured locally in your region (where ever that is UK, Canada, Malaysia even Florida, etc...) and you are supporting your future and your future audience.

 

[Jason P Bass]

I have a MIA Ampeg head. 5 years, at least 200 gigs, going strong.

I bought a Chinese Ampeg combo a few months back. On day 32, something fried/blew and it was dead. Shipped back though, and full refund.

Regarding production costs, I recently read a magazine article that discussed the relative costs of manufacturing in the US, China, and Mexico. It turns out that the comparative advantage of China vs. Mexico is a thing of the past. Some industries are shutting down their Chinese operations because it's simply cheaper to operate in Mexico. I can't recall where I read it - Newsweek or something like that in a doctor's waiting room.

 

[JansenW]

Companies can manufacture (overseas or not) to any quality they and you are willing to pay for.

Using overseas manufacturing is only one of many ways to cut costs. Companies that also cut costs with design, parts, training, assembly techniques, QC processes, packaging and shipping will affect quality but are in a position to make more money.

 

[electracoyote]

I have a very nice Crate Palomino tube amp. Some were made in the USA, but mine was made in Vietnam. I have played them side-by-side, absolutely no difference, both have great natural tube warmth and distortion.

Vietnam?

I sincerely believe that, with the right oversight and quality control, any factory anywhere in the world can turn out high-end, pro-level equipment. Anyone who turns their nose up at a piece of gear based solely on the country of origin is just not thinking clearly. Especially these days. It happened to automobiles, consumer electronics, and athletic shoes, now it's happening to music equipment. The USA is getting left in the dust.

 

[MIJ-VI]

不管黑猫白猫,能捉老鼠就是好猫. Translation: "It does not matter whether the cat is black or white; as long as it catches the mouse, it is a good cat."

- Deng Xiaoping, 1961 (Commenting on the whether China should turn to capitalism or remain strictly in adherence with the economic ideologies of communism)

 

[BurningSkies]

Why, thank you, Bongo. But, I dont think BurningSkies quite understood my Wal-Mart inference

No, I understood. I have no problem with Chinese goods and support the purchase of them as well as other non-US production. I just don't believe in Walmart .

 

[49sfine]

I doubt very much that China and Korea have " minimally-trained, barely-educated farmers" in their factories. Have you ever been there?? They place high value on education and work ethics. One trip to Korea will show you how far behind we really are compared to them. This efficiency is the reason we are loosing the manufacturing to them not because they employ a bunch of low paid peasants. I personally refuse to support inefficiency just cause it makes me feel good.

I used to be married to a Chinese woman. In fact, we got married in Shanghai! In China there is indeed a HUGH problem with country people migrating to the cities to find work with the allure of their form of "market capitalism". The influx is so big that it is creating a unique problem for the Chinese government. You can go to any major city and pick out the country folk very easily and see them trying to make a living on the street corners fixing bikes or any number of similar little "businesses". There simply are not enough factory jobs and the like to keep them all gainfully employed. This has to effect the factories and manufactoring firms that are contracted by USA companies to get their products built there. Korea I do not have first hand expereince with, but I suppose it could be similar there too, but then the Korean mind set will be different as well. A Korean product, IMO will be closer to that of one made in Japan, which typically are excellent. I owned a Japanese P-bass last year and was astonished at how well it was made. I'd get another one in a flash!

 

[Captain Bob]

All excellent comments. And, maybe my previous diatribe was a bit too cynical for many to digest.
Electracoyote's comment is on the mark.

But, back to my inference of inherent value, implied in my very cynical earlier post.
Are the Palomino's that are manufactured in both locales, (USA and Vietnam) the same purchase price? Because, I assure you that the manufacturing costs associated with each of those products is not the same. If those purchase costs are the same, what is the inherent value?
Therefore, one must ask, where then, have you placed....your value?

The emerging nations that have been discussed have learned where to place their own value. It's into thier own respective economies. They are not buying 'your' product.

How can the most powerful economy in the world, have a need to borrow money from the Chinese, to support itself?
As such, we will continue our decrease of ecomonic scale (hopefully slowly, since world histories have proven socio-economic breakdown) and the other entities mentioned will continue to increase their ecomomic scale. Generally, speaking we have to learn where to place our 'value' and realize that value is not always a measure of price point.

Unrelated in subject, but just the same in topic, since other industries such as seafoods, have been mentioned. Let me share this, and the intent is not to alarm the reader.

There is a major airline (several actually) that now chooses to 'ship' or rather fly, its major airplane maintenence overseas. Even all the way to China and return (thats a lot of fuel folks). Because, you guessed it....it's cheaper.

The airplanes are taken to repair facilities that have no Federal Aviation Administration oversite (you know, the entity that ensures your safety, and the public trust, thru testing and regulation) and uncertificated (read, skill and knowledge) airframe and powerplant personnel.
This is what our adversarial 'employee groups' have brought upon themselves?

So, the next time you purchase your 69.95 boarding pass (which most likely doesn't cover the rubber that leaves the tires upon touchdown), realize just where some of that 'value' you have just obtained has been placed....certainly not in your best interest.

 

[Captain Bob]

49sfine, that's an enlightening comment and perspective. Thank you, for sharing.

Chatting about amplifiers......how did we get here? Where did the 'college ideologies' of my youth disappear too?
Oh well, the definition of learning; is a change in behavior due to experience. I guess I'm still experiencing and learning!

 

[electracoyote]

Are the Palomino's that are manufactured in both locales, (USA and Vietnam) the same purchase price? Because, I assure you that the manufacturing costs associated with each of those products is not the same. If those purchase costs are the same, what is the inherent value?
Therefore, one must ask, where then, have you placed....your value?

Especially this, but the rest of the post poses a great question. Sorry Captain, although you didn't want it to be, anyone who reads that should be alarmed.

This is the result of the great push toward forced, intentional, and unnecessary outsourcing to fuel the "global economy," an ideal perpetuated not-so-long ago by those politicians in power. We have become largely a nation of consumers, and we hand over the manufacturing and production duties to the rest of the world. It kind of leaves us holding the short end of the economic stick eventually.

BTW, the Vietnamese amp cost the same as the USA version. Since we know the Vietnamese amp cost less to make, where did that extra profit margin go? Into our economy? Or Vietnam's?

 

[Lichtaffen]

Let me put it this way: I worked for a US manufacturer who sourced out some of their products to China. We dealt with reps from these so-called companies who assured us that everything was always made in the same facility. Come to find out they were sourcing our work to various factories and printing plants that were unknown to us based solely on which plant produced the cheapest parts. Quality control did not exist. There was no such thing as consistency. They were just trying to get the cheapest price for every part so they could make a bigger profit off of us, no matter the quality.

How would you feel if you found out your pickups were treated with such care? Or the neck on your bass? Do we even have any idea where the wood comes from or what type of ecological conditions are being compromised?

I personally believe that overseas workers could care less what they are manufacturing as long as they make their $4 a day. Do you think the craftsmen at US guitar manufacturers feel the same way about the products they put out? That's why all good US manufacturers have sections on their websites dedicated to factory/shop tours. They want you to know that "Joe", who puts the frets on your bass's neck, is a real person who takes pride in building your instrument.

I understand that not everyone can spend $1200+ on a bass, just realize that you really are getting what you pay for.

 

[lomo]

No, I understood. I have no problem with Chinese goods and support the purchase of them as well as other non-US production. I just don't believe in Walmart .

Me neither. My small town has a huuuuuge Walmart, and virtually no other significant retailers. IMO it's unfortunate that in N. Am we have come to expect cheap goods as a right, without thinking much further. When I recently saw a made to measure shirt for 150 bucks, my initial reflex was to recoil at the high price. A friend from Madrid commented that the only reason I'm accustomed to paying 39.99 or less is that the people making those items are (often) paid (much) less than the retail cost of bass strings for a day's work. He noted that I have many shirts in my closet, and asked if only 8 might actually be enough, in which case my total shirt cost would be about the same, and the shirtmaker could be paid a good wage for better quality work. He was right , IMO, and I am struggling (not very successfully) to fight the consumerism that plays to our natural tendency to hoard and is stoked by every ad we see. Humans, as my late father was fond of saying, are only smart enough to be a danger to ourselves and other living things.

Back on topic-good or bad stuff can be produced anywhere, but the trend of producing most stuff elsewhere (from a western perspective) so that it can be sold competitively here is, at best, out of balance and unsustainable in the long term.........just like overall human consumption and population are.

 

[MK1]

I hate to say it, but we (Americans in general) are the ones forcing companies to out source. We want our prices to be as low as possible and our wages to be as high as possible. This equation just doesn't add up.
I've also noticed that people get all worked up about Ampeg now being made in Vietnam, but nobody seems to have any qualms about buying a Lakland Skyline model (also made overseas).
That being said I try and buy from companies that practice fair business ethics whenever possible and sometimes that means saving a little longer and paying a little more.

 

[Lichtaffen]

Morris,
That's a very very good point you stated in the above post. How many shirts do we really need? We're brainwashed by the media to think that having more shirts makes you a more stylish person. A few years back I decided to buy one good suit for weddings, funerals, dinners, etc. I went out and bought a Hugo Boss and spent more than most here would spend for a bass. It was worth it because I've had it for over 5 years and it's still brand new looking and the quality hasn't faded. By the typical US mentality, you should go to Men's Wearhouse and get a 2 suits for one deal. Those suits will last you long enough to take advantage of their next sales promotion.

We live in a society obsessed with disposable items. How many cell phones have you bought since they first became popular in the late 90's? Luckily, we here are talking about products which do not become obsolete, an instrument made in 1962 is just as functional as one made yesterday. Think about musicians investing in a home recording studio, you buy something today and it's obsolete in 6 months. It's all a game called technology, the products aren't getting better, they're just giving you more features so that you lose confidence in what you already own and covet what you don't have yet.

If we were all satisfied with what we had, there would be no China as we know it today. Plus there wouldn't be landfills the size of Mt. Washington.

 

[smogg]

Do really have a choice?

Example: I build my own computers and buy my parts from an American owned company. Many if not most of the components (ie: main boards, graphics cards etc.) are manufactured overseas. Taiwan most likely? So my computers are not really American made, they are assembled in the USA.

My bass is "Made in the USA" (production built not custom built). Was every piece of wood, metal, & plastic grown and/or manufactured in the US? I don't know. (9 years old)

Power amp says made in the USA, all components US made? Don't know. (at least 12 years old)

My micro amp is marketed as made in Japan but it's actually made in China. (less than 6 months old)

My truck fly's a Japanese logo but was actually built at a Ford plant here in the US. (almost 10 years old)

It just goes on and on like that. So for me, I feel like I have no choice other than to look at long term reliability/value rather than country of origin.

just my 2 cents

 

[Bassorama57]

Fascinating thread; and goodness knows why economics discussions pop up in TB more than anyplace else - possibly because musical instruments are one of the few categories where American manufacturing is still competitive.

Moving beyond the discussion of "Buying American" (Or British, or EU or whatever) for patriotic reasons, it really does boil down to QC, and noting comments by Bongo and others below, a lot of foreign manufacturers don't have the same level of QC rigor 'western' companies do. I'm happy to have a couple of Music Man basses made in California that obviously went through a rigorous QC process, but there's no reason why they couldn't have been made in China - it's just wood and metal - but I'm happy that that they were made in California. I have a Mesa amp that I'm happy with - main reason being when I call someone with a problem, they're right there in California and I can talk to them; though I'm certain that at well designed and QC's amp made overseas would work just as good (or bad). The simple problem is, as has been pointed out, that Americans expect their consumer goods to be cheap, and won't pay for quality - so manufacturers have been forced to outsource to lower cost plants overseas. There's a completely different philosophy in the EU - and this is evident in that many manufacturers (Braun, the shaver/personal care company in Germany as an example) makes one set of products in Europe for the EU, and another overseas for the American market.

I doubt my Ikea furniture is going to show up in an antique furniture store in 50 years...

 

[edbass]

Here’s a pair of truisms IMO;

Companies can manufacture (overseas or not) to any quality they and you are willing to pay for.

You make your choices, there is a high cost in buying the "inexpensive".

There is no question in my mind that JansenW’s quote is spot on; but TAZ also raises the question of value.

The problem is the consumer; most people wail and gnash their teeth over “over priced” and “high priced” gear, when truthfully the old axiom “You get what you pay for” is pretty generally true.
Interestingly, my forum experiences would indicate that we bass players are overall more “low rent” when it comes to gear than our guitar brethren; i.e., Talkbassers regularly post about “cheapest rigs”, how to "fix" the headstocks on $150 Fender copies, “amps under $xxx” and thread after thread after thread about how you can build better than “overpriced” commercially available speakers in your garage, or out design professionals by using a free computer program, whereas more folks at The Gear Page and other guitar oriented forums seem to realize that quality is where it’s at and that it doesn’t come cheap.

Maybe that explains why the pre-eminent bass amp manufacturer decided to "go Asian" rather than raise prices to increase their margins.

 

[MNAirHead]

I'd say yes....

Not that imports are bad.. some have better QC than others.

When it's a USA build amp/guitar in their factory.. the serial numbers are better tracked and can go back to the company.

I've posted many times... "You really want the Indonesian Cirrus"

The quality will improve.. it will take time for the companies to establish the better mfgs.

I own mostly USA stuff.. the imports are still being figured out.

Unfortunately --- this qualtiy issue on low end gear is the product of GC dictating price (I've spoken with their supplier CEOs)

 

[Lync]

I try to buy American whenever possible. But...I also buy for value. In this global economy, value may not always come from home. If you want my business, make a good product that has value and I will be there.

Then again, I did buy the Bose L1 system, so I get a double FAIL.