Does it matter where stuff is made?

[Bassorama57]

Unfortunately --- this qualtiy issue on low end gear is the product of GC dictating price (I've spoken with their supplier CEOs)

+1 Bingo. It's hard for me to find gear I'd want to use in GC; not bad for sound reinforcement stuff, the occasional cable or stand, but the instruments obviously are chasing certain price points (what mama will pay for Junior's birthday/Xmas present). I mean, that's good and that's bad. When I was a kid (I'm 53 now), there were some cheap Japanese made "Silvertone" instruments at Sears, but everything else was at Music & Arts, or, if you were a little more serious, Chuck Levin's in MD outside DC. So GC is good because more young people can get geared up and play; it's bad because they don't have to take it seriously, because nobody mortgaged the house or cut lawns and worked fast-food jobs for a year to earn the money; and there's a learning hurdle to get past with anything, music in particular, that one becomes determined to surmount once they've invested themselves heavily into it (eg, "I WILL learn to play this &^%$#@ thing because I busted my @** for a year to save up for it!!).

 

[62Start]

Here's my experience:

1) guitars - I regard where a guitar was made as extremely important, nothing compares to the playability of a premium USA made instrument, except USA custom shop instruments which are always exceptional. The necks and fretwork on these instruments always reflect the extra attention of a skilled luthier. You may not remember the "pallet' guitars made by Taylor - they took actual shipping pallets, disassembled them and made guitars from the pallet wood; the point was that it wasn't the materials that made a great guitar, it was the luthier's skill.

Mexico - generally the same parts as in USA guitars and often better high gloss finishes, these lack the important final touches by highly skilled and experienced luthiers.

Japan - generally equivalent parts to USA guitars and often better craftmanship overall, but these still lack the important final touches by highly skilled and experienced luthiers.

Korea - great woods, fantastic inlays and superb craftmanship, but lacking the final touches by a skilled luthier.

Indonesia/China - depends entirely on the brand and its quality control, some poorly made inexpensive stuff. Some great buys like the contemporary Hofner with premium woods, great workmanship and German parts at 30% of the cost of a german made Hofner.

U.K. - I own some vintage guitars made in England, and frankly they are crap.

Spain and Italy - the price usually refects the quality and value.

2) amps - I don't really care where an amp is made; they don't need an expert's final touches. I buy amps based on my personal experience, brand reputation, quality, ruggedness, performance and components. I have played Ampeg amps for bass since 1964, but have also owned and played Fender and Randall rigs. My primary guitar amp is a VOX AC30 with celestions, but again, I have played fenders and several other brands. I prefer tube amps not so much for the sound, but for the reliability - I seem to be cursed by cracked printed circuit boards when I buy solid state. The only solid state amp I own at present is an Ultrasound acoustic guitar amp.
I couldn't tell you where any of my amps or speaker cabs were made.

If a guitar is or was made in the USA at some point in time. that's what I always buy. For example, most Fender Toronados were made in Mexico; I have a USA model. However, there are some excellent guitars that were never made in the USA (like a Contemporary Strat), and I have owned lots (still have about a dozen or so) of these too.

95% of the time, I am playing a premium USA custom shop guitar, because they play so well.

I was at excellent music store last week and they had about 30 Squire Strats on the wall of about $129 each (Xmas presents for kids), and a couple of USA standard strats for about $1,299 for guitarists. Hey, my first guitar was a Sears Silvertone; it only makes sense to give a rookie a cheap guitar as 95% of them will never learn to play.

And if $129 is too steep, you can buy Starcasters all day long in the pawn shops for about $50 each.

 

[MNAirHead]

My favored botique basses are european.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

it's a global economy, kids...

oh, the irony...

 

[Lichtaffen]

It's interesting to parallel this whole discussion to other products. Cameras, for example, which I personally have plenty of experience with, are a totally different ball of wax. There are no US camera makers (maybe some small esoteric brands, but generally no big manufacturers. Kodak outsources everything.), but German and Swedish cameras have always commanded high prices due to their quality, durability and superior image quality. Japanese cameras are really great, but most are manufactured in Southeast Asia. German companies have been falling off the map due to the average joe not wanting to pay high prices for something with a sensor that will be obsolete in a few years. Before digital photography, German and Swedish was where it was at. Now due to the rapid advances in technology, people aren't willing to pay high prices for something that's going produce images that end up as low quality JPEGs on a website anyways.

What I'm trying to say is that "at least we have a choice with bass gear". I've got no choice but to buy a Japanese/Asian camera unless I want to shell out $30,000+ for a Swedish Hasselblad kit.

 

[musicelectronix]

I am just gonna mention this, because I have very strong opinions about the subject and I really don't want Thor to ban me today.

Do you think 60 years from now, Hyundai Accent (or any similar car) will be a classic car? Do you think you will see ANY of them on road by that time? This is not just about quality control. This is also about originality, shifting priorities, loss of artistic vision, accountability of mistakes or successes, decreasing creativity, etc. One phrase to summarize this: illusion of uniqueness and quality through mass production.

Come on, let's go to Ikea together and get ourselves a "different" Euro-style coffee table; which will be thrown away in 4-5 years. My grand parents still eat on the table they got in late 60s.

 

[62Start]

I want to make one more personal observation. Long ago I worked shortly for a USA manufacturer (RCA) of color TVs; yeah, the big wooden console jobs.

I started on the production line assembling the cabinets. These were beautifully made, solid wood, cabinets that came tothe assembly line in fiished pieces and had to be assembled on a moving line with numerous metal braces and screws. The speed of the line and the number of workers was such that even the most highly skilled and fastest worker couldn't hope to get in more than 3/4s of the required braces and screws, and some cabinets simply collasped at some point down the line for lack of braces or screws. However, every cabinet always had several dropped screws inside as there was no time to pick up a dropped screw.

I later moved up to the quality control area where there were three electronics engineers checking the picture and sound on a TV while I moved clip-on antenna wires, made convergence settings and adjusted purity as requested by the engineers (no backs on the TV yet). The engineers were required to hit the TV on the top of the cabinet 3 times with a 5" soft rubber ball on the end of a one foot wooden stick to see if the picture or sound changed. there were so many loose screws and other parts inside the TVs that on the first hit about 1 in 5 would simply blow up; so the engineers hit them very softly. Anytime I made a inside adjustment I would attempt to remove all of the extra loose parts, but the line moved so fast that I had little time to do much more than keep the antenna lines moved.

My guess is that at least half of the TVs that passed "inspection" would experience a fatal short when first plugged in.

All that management cared about was units completed and boxed.

My mother had me buy her one of these TVs (this is when a color TV cost about three month's pay) and before we plugged it in I pulled the chassis out, finished out the cabinet assembly and bracing and removed all of the loose extra parts (screws, etc.). As I recall there were twenty some odd extra loose parts inside, and apparently during packing and handling several had lodged in very dangerous places such as shorting high voltage connections. Afterwards, I set the convergence and purity and the TV set worked as well as could be expected for many years, just as it should have when it left the factory.

The point I am making is that it was the greed of USA management that killed US manufacturing. Japan copied US designs and paid attention to quality control.

When US workers (or skilled workers anywhere) are allowed to do their job well, the end product is as good as the product's design allows. When management (anywhere again) gets greedy and forces labor to take shortcuts or tries to save money with inferior materials, you get shoddy products.

By the way, when I was finally able to afford a color TV myself
it was a 19" SONY that cost $600 (about the equivalent of $3,000 today). It worked perfectly for many years.

 

[zachoff]

I don't usually get up in arms about where stuff is made. Maybe when I was 14-18 years old and didn't have the experience I do now to know what is good and what isn't just by picking it up and plugging it in I would have cared where it was made... But back then I could only afford a $150 Squier so it didn't matter, anyway.

So no... Not really.

 

[MrTAteMyBalls]

wow...great thread. In general, manufacturing is going the way of the buffalo in the u.s. For instance, the U.S. used to be the worlds number one manufacturer of steel, and now there are only a handful of steel mills left here. And these companies wonder why there is no one left to buy thier products in the u.s.

 

[Bassamatic]

I am pleased to see that so many here "Get It". Asian made products are not cheap because of where they are made, it is because they are cheap BY DESIGN. Asia is is the only place that the very low-cost products CAN be made, at least for now. I manage outsourcing and have been responsible for product manufacturing in Asia for more than 20 years.

When assembly line workers make $20-$30 an hour like in the USA and Europe - how could any product be made low cost? Impossible! Therefore, when a company NEEDS a low cost product to fill our their product line or to meet a market point (like Behringer) - they have no other choice but to go to Asia.

On the other hand, the most advanced factories in the world are now in China, and the highest quality goods can also be made there, if desired. The experience and training of the workers is also increasing. Computers, TVs, Home Theater products, digital cameras of all price ranges, and major brands etc. are made there, and the quality of goods is going to steadily increase.

China does not equal low quality - it means low manufacturing cost. It is up to the BUYER to specify the quality (and price ) level.

 

[JimmyM]

The point I am making is that it was the greed of USA management that killed US manufacturing.

Thank you.

I, for one, am getting tired of being blamed for the economy of this country going down the tubes when I buy a Japanese car or a Chinese bass. Poor manufacturing caused by greed at the top levels of management is what caused it, not little Jimmy Miller in Apopka, FL buying a Nissan. But all the rah rah America first people don't want to accept that. Tough. Make a good product and I'm there. Make a bad product and I don't care if you're my next door neighbor...I won't buy it.

 

[itsalljustaride]

It really does just matter whether the company has it together enough to ensure good QC. If a company outsources to China, but partners with the lowest bid they get, then they deserve the crap that comes back to them. Just looking at a "Made in China" sticker and assuming it will be junk that will fall apart in a year is willful ignorance. It's understandable, though, since so many companies DO outsource to shoddy shop in China, and get back junk, so you would THINK that it's a pretty hard and fast rule. The reality is actually more about how much the instrument costs as a whole, rather than the source of manufacture. A $150 Squire made in China is definitely going to be lower quality than a $500 Ibanez. That has a lot more to do with how much care and attention the company put into ensuring quality, though, than it does simply on country of origin.

GM has plants in China that pay comparatively better than their plants here (because of the different currency value, and cost of living). Being an autoworker in China now holds the same respect that it used to here in the US. Country bumpkins don't work at those plants. They work in virtual sweatshops churning out sweaters and sweatpants for Wal-Mart. Just like the uneducated would here in the US. Even then, many of the people who work in those shops are students, just like you and I may be here, saving money for their education. Manufacturing jobs are very popular with young women in China, because they are easy to get, and allow them to save up for school.

If a company is going to do business in China, they need to be on the ball. They have to make regular trips to the factories, and keep relations with their suppliers. If they don't then they're likely to be doing business with a front company that is cutting costs at any point they can to get the lowest manufacturing cost.

I realize as much as anyone else that if I buy China-made products, that that doesn't benefit my local economy as much as it could. I also realize, however, that a company that makes inferior quality products does not deserve my money, no matter my nationality. I would buy a Japanese car any day, because they make great cars. I'm sorry it's the truth. The US used to make great cars too (what we now call "classic" cars), but that was when they were only competing with a couple other European companies. Once Japan got on the ball, all bets were off. If I support shoddy design and engineering, simply because it was shoddily designed and engineered in my country, I also do a disservice to my community by rewarding sub-par quality.

In the end, I don't think country of manufacture makes much difference. I really don't. Price will tell you a lot more about the quality you're getting than the country of manufacture.

 

[itsalljustaride]

Do you think 60 years from now, Hyundai Accent (or any similar car) will be a classic car? Do you think you will see ANY of them on road by that time?

The problem with that argument is that often "classic cars" have either been babied since they were bought (weekend drivers), or were restored from a rusting hulk, with reproduction parts (that may have even been made in China, haha).

Many classic automobiles here in the US are essentially remanufactured goods, with new engines and new upholstery. So to say that they've lasted 60 years is a bit misleading.

Hell, often times the only original part on a "classic car" is the frame and maybe 50% of the main body sheet metal. It's a labor of love, and a hobby, but it's far from indicative of the real shelf-life of an American car.

 

[JimmyM]

Hell, often times the only original part on a "classic car" is the frame and maybe 50% of the main body sheet metal. It's a labor of love, and a hobby, but it's far from indicative of the real shelf-life of an American car.

I have to agree. I've seen a couple 70's AMC cars at classic car shows, and they were pieces of crap back then. But after you get rid of all the rust and repaint them, and replace all the crappy parts with good ones, and they're not so bad.

 

[MrTAteMyBalls]

I believe in buying american, and do so when I can, but I also completely agree with your statement. Cutting corners or workers to keep production costs down was/is a way to boost short term profits. But in the long run that idea has costs that go far beyond what anyone could have imagined. It's not just that American manufacturers no longer match the quality of what's made overseas at the given price point....now we have a situation where there are not enough high paying manufacturing jobs to go around, and therefore not enough consumers. It's all connected. I guess I'm somewhat of a rah rah american, but that doesn't mean that I am blind to what is going on. I have bought japanese cars, and I currently own a KIA. I own a japanese Fender as well. It's too bad because I'd like to own all american made.

Thank you.

I, for one, am getting tired of being blamed for the economy of this country going down the tubes when I buy a Japanese car or a Chinese bass. Poor manufacturing caused by greed at the top levels of management is what caused it, not little Jimmy Miller in Apopka, FL buying a Nissan. But all the rah rah America first people don't want to accept that. Tough. Make a good product and I'm there. Make a bad product and I don't care if you're my next door neighbor...I won't buy it.

 

[not_jason]

The problem with that argument is that often "classic cars" have either been babied since they were bought (weekend drivers), or were restored from a rusting hulk, with reproduction parts (that may have even been made in China, haha).

Many classic automobiles here in the US are essentially remanufactured goods, with new engines and new upholstery. So to say that they've lasted 60 years is a bit misleading.

Hell, often times the only original part on a "classic car" is the frame and maybe 50% of the main body sheet metal. It's a labor of love, and a hobby, but it's far from indicative of the real shelf-life of an American car.

I still think that older automobiles, by virtue of their design, are fundamentally stronger than modern cars. They were designed to be repaired and maintained. Modern vehicles (and I'm not excepting American made) are made to be used and disposed of. You may be able to get a lot of miles out of a small front wheel drive car, but when it finally breaks, you'll be looking at a much more substantial bill for repairs that are far more difficult to do. For as long as it continues to be an option, every new vehicle I buy will be a small American truck: simple drive-train, cheaply replaceable parts, and will run forever if you stay on top of it.

As somebody who is from an area devastated by industrial collapse, I think that buying local and American is important. I want to support my local economy so that it continues to be possible to make a comfortable living where I'm from.

The sad fact about musical instruments is that I simply cannot afford to buy American. It's not that I want to save money, but rather that if I wasn't flexible about country of origin, I would not be able to own a bass or an amp. Fender keeps jacking up their prices, year after year, and there is absolutely no way that I will ever be able to throw the money they want at the product they're selling. They also price their American equipment as luxury stuff, which sort of goes against my ideals as a consumer. I like cheap, no-frills, workhorse gear, and unfortunately, nobody in this country seems to even be trying to make that. There's probably no financially viable way to even do it.

 

[edbass]

Make a bad product and I don't care if you're my next door neighbor...I won't buy it.

As it should be, bolstering the "you get what you pay for philosophy!
And, one of the core reasons behind the US becoming the dominant manufacturing-economic-political powerhouse in the 19th and 20th centuries.

The point I am making is that it was the greed of USA management that killed US manufacturing.

While that does seem like the prevailing socialist agenda, you forgot to factor in the US labor force, who's unions (as a result of political pandering; “payback” for votes) have the power to dictate that;

High School education (maybe?) + Manual labor job = Six figure compensation with "untouchable" status regardless of how poor their work quality, or nonexistent their work ethic may be.

That is the #1 factor in what actually killed large scale US manufacturing.
"Greed of USA management" is a vague term, while it can be a politically convenient rationalization to point the finger at "the man" for personal problems, in actuality in a publicly traded company like RCA all the books are open, all salaries are reported, there is no "man behind the curtain" hoarding big bags of money like Scrooge McDuck, the fruits of what you are terming 'greed' actually go to shareholders, largely comprised of John Q. Public, and of who’s ranks anyone can join. Including the poor downtrodden plant workers.
It boils down to personal responsibility, not what you can get without effort.
IMO of course…

 

[not_jason]

I have to agree. I've seen a couple 70's AMC cars at classic car shows, and they were pieces of crap back then. But after you get rid of all the rust and repaint them, and replace all the crappy parts with good ones, and they're not so bad.

70s AMCs are not exactly a shining high point of American craftsmanship. I used to have an old Hornet sitting in my back yard, and it was made using a lot of the same design principals that I've come to hate about modern cars. This isn't to say I don't love 70s AMCs, but they aren't really what I'm talking about when I talk about old American cars.

 

[edbass]

I like cheap, no-frills, workhorse gear, and unfortunately, nobody in this country seems to even be trying to make that. There's probably no financially viable way to even do it.

A very sad, but very true commentary on the state of the American economy IMO.
If it were fiscally viable, it would be done. No matter how no-frills and basic you try to build it, labor costs and Government regulations would force premium pricing.

 

[zachoff]

High School education (maybe?) + Manual labor job = Six figure compensation with "untouchable" status regardless of how poor their work quality, or nonexistent their work ethic may be.

That is the #1 factor in what actually killed large scale US manufacturing.
"Greed of USA management" is a vague term, while it can be a politically convenient rationalization to point the finger at "the man" for personal problems, in actuality in a publicly traded company like RCA all the books are open, all salaries are reported, there is no "man behind the curtain" hoarding big bags of money like Scrooge McDuck, the fruits of what you are terming 'greed' actually go to shareholders, largely comprised of John Q. Public, and of who’s ranks anyone can join. Including the poor downtrodden plant workers.
It boils down to personal responsibility, not what you can get without effort.
IMO of course…

While I agree with your opinion on unions, consumers dictate production... Always have. There's a reason Wal Mart is huge and it's because Americans want cheap ****. Bottom line. Of course some of us will pay for more expensive/higher quality products, but the majority of Americans won't and don't.

The automobile industry is a different story and I think that's where you were coming from with the unions. Unions and pensions have destroyed the big three... For sure.