Guilty as charged.No, I don't think being logical leads to sadness. I do think being a poor communicator on the internet leads to confusion.
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Does logic matter if it doesn't change the way I live?
- Thread starter slobake
- Start date
Logic has evolutionary advantages, in some contexts.
The adaptive unconscious, which is arguably NOT logical, has more immediately practical evolutionary advantages, in some contexts.
That does not mean that logic is either more useful or less useful. It also doesn't mean that we should either worship logic or eschew logic. We have both, and we should use both. If I have to make a decision quickly based on insufficient evidence, I may need to trust my intuition. When I get more information, I can apply logic and perhaps even change my mind (oh, my!).
If this kind of rambling doesn't put you off, you might like reading "Thinking, Fast and Slow", by Daniel Kahneman.
The adaptive unconscious, which is arguably NOT logical, has more immediately practical evolutionary advantages, in some contexts.
That does not mean that logic is either more useful or less useful. It also doesn't mean that we should either worship logic or eschew logic. We have both, and we should use both. If I have to make a decision quickly based on insufficient evidence, I may need to trust my intuition. When I get more information, I can apply logic and perhaps even change my mind (oh, my!).
If this kind of rambling doesn't put you off, you might like reading "Thinking, Fast and Slow", by Daniel Kahneman.
The universe has no concept of logic. The stars, planets, water, air, the plants and animals. None of those things or beings has any idea what logic is. Logic is a man-made concept. It only exists in our minds.
Don't sweat it. Do what's natural, and right for you, without harming others.
It'll work out.
Don't sweat it. Do what's natural, and right for you, without harming others.
It'll work out.
There's also a difference between logic and reason, but many folks use them interchangeably. Let's see... you can be:
- logical and reasonable
- logical and unreasonable
- illogical and unreasonable, and
- illogical and reasonable
I'd argue that the fellow wanting to buy the Jeep is being logical because he values the positive attributes of the Jeep more than the negative attributes. He doesn't care about gas mileage but likes the wind in his hair and how it looks. Given his preferences, he's probably even being reasonable. If I were his wife and didn't want the Jeep, I'd probably argue that buying a convertible SUV would be more reasonable, but then, they don't look like a Jeep.
But Slo, maybe this discussion isn't so much about logic or reasonableness as it is about self-control? Keeping yourself doing good behaviors rather than self-destructive behaviors?
- logical and reasonable
- logical and unreasonable
- illogical and unreasonable, and
- illogical and reasonable
I'd argue that the fellow wanting to buy the Jeep is being logical because he values the positive attributes of the Jeep more than the negative attributes. He doesn't care about gas mileage but likes the wind in his hair and how it looks. Given his preferences, he's probably even being reasonable. If I were his wife and didn't want the Jeep, I'd probably argue that buying a convertible SUV would be more reasonable, but then, they don't look like a Jeep.
But Slo, maybe this discussion isn't so much about logic or reasonableness as it is about self-control? Keeping yourself doing good behaviors rather than self-destructive behaviors?
The universe has no concept of logic. The stars, planets, water, air, the plants and animals. None of those things or beings has any idea what logic is. Logic is a man-made concept. It only exists in our minds.
Don't sweat it. Do what's natural, and right for you, without harming others.
It'll work out.
You don't think animals use logic? How about crows dropping stones in a cup of water to reach the treats?
It is about people saying I am illogical because of certain things that make perfect sense to me. I see ways how my accusers
are illogical themselves. I see some of their behavior as self destructive as well. It would be illogical for me to point these things out to them because they would get defensive, the walls would go up and the only thing that would be accomplished is the potential to stifle further communication. I know because I tried once and that is what happened. If we could only see ourselves how others do.
Me? Oh yeah I have issues too and sometimes I am willing to admit it and look at them.
We who try to be as rational as possible (and you know who I am talking about) are all too aware of how easy it is to miss our own biases and faults. We invite criticism and value it as kindness. I have no idea who you're talking about, or what, but I beg you to reconsider your approach. Especially since, from what you said here, you gave up after being pushed back once. Their loss.It is about people saying I am illogical because of certain things that make perfect sense to me. I see ways how my accusers
If we could only see ourselves how others do.
Me? Oh yeah I have issues too and sometimes I am willing to admit it and look at them.
That wouldn't mean that you should criticize everything you disagree with. Just if you know the recipient will take it well, hear your words, and consider them honestly.
The call it "CAW, CAW, CAW"They do that because it works. But they don't call it logic.
lol! Exactly! Which in crow probably means, "I'm a genius!" Or it may just mean they have to poop. I don't know.
It is about people saying I am illogical because of certain things that make perfect sense to me. I see ways how my accusers
If we could only see ourselves how others do.
Me? Oh yeah I have issues too and sometimes I am willing to admit it and look at them.
Sounds like maybe you need lessons in diplomacy. It is very difficult to recognize our own failings.
What’s an analogy? Let’s say you’re superstitious about spilt salt. When it happens, you insist on throwing 3 pinches over your left shoulder. Your wife (Gorn) argues that that’s illogical, that you have no reason to believe that throwing the salt over your shoulder saves you from bad luck any more than finding a four-leaf clover will bring you good luck, moreover, it gets salt all over the floor that someone has to sweep up.
On the face of it, to me, it seems as though your wife (Gorn) is right and you’re wrong. If your superstition didn’t cause any harm then it could be seen as just silly and harmless, but it makes a mess and someone could slip on the salt and break their neck. So there are potentially serious consequences to your illogical behavior. (slight exaggeration for the sake of discussion)
But, it sounds like, following the analogy through, you’d agree with all of that but you still want to throw the salt. So, you recognize that your wife (Gorn) is right but you still want to do it.
That could be addictive behavior – your mind and body has been conditioned to feel compelled to throw the salt such that if you don’t do it, you feel ill. All brain chemistry, etc. And, if you been addicted to one thing in your life, it can be very easy to end that addiction by substituting something else. This could very well be your situation.
On the other hand, maybe it’s like the poster about the Jeep. He wants the Jeep even if it’s not so practical because he likes Jeeps. In his case, as long as no one is seriously harmed by his choice or adamantly objects, what’s the harm? Sure, he might spend a bit more but it’s not like he’s giving up his kid’s college educations for it. He’s an adult, no significant harm, no foul. But, if his wife (Gorn) threatens to divorce him if he buys the Jeep, then, maybe he ought to think twice, and either persuade her (Gorn) that the Jeep purchase is justified – he’s not getting any younger, he wants some excitement while he’s driving, he needs this to feel like a man (can you say mid-life crisis – don’t ask me how I know) – or he should consider other options. Maybe he won’t get his first desire, but he might find that his wife (Gorn) was right and he’s happier with the convertible SUV. In the face of significant pressure, people bend, and often, but not always, that’s smart. Ask the Pope.
To apply the Jeepster’s solution to my analogy, if no one you care about objects, you toss only a single grain over your shoulder each time so that no one is inconvenienced or potentially harmed by your superstition. If there are strenuous objections that you would like to resolve, then maybe you agree to toss the spilt salt into the trash, using three pinches. In either case, no one else is significantly impacted by your compulsion.
Here’s where the diplomacy part comes in: you still want to throw your salt, and it has to go over your shoulder, the trash doesn’t do it for you, even though you agree that it’s unreasonable. So you propose a deal with your wife (Gorn) that when you throw the salt, you’ll throw it onto the grass so no one but you is inconvenienced by it. A different spot each time so you don’t kill the grass.
Your wife (Gorn) might not be thrilled with your “deal”, but she’ll (he’ll) have to agree that you did your best to meet her (him) more than halfway, and ultimately, should give you a lot of credit for being so conscientious about your behavior/compulsion/superstition.
To paraphrase Forrest Gump – OMG, who’d a thought? – conscientious IS, as conscientious does.
And, once again, thanks for all you do, Slo. I, and I expect many others on TB appreciate your efforts. You're a stand-up, honest guy in my book and that's one of the best compliments I can pay.
The universe has no concept of anything. But I think that we have developed a fairly refined concept of logic (and mathematics) because it works for describing and talking about reality. If logic didn't work in support of getting through life, we'd have abandoned it long ago.The universe has no concept of logic. The stars, planets, water, air, the plants and animals. None of those things or beings has any idea what logic is. Logic is a man-made concept. It only exists in our minds.
Don't sweat it. Do what's natural, and right for you, without harming others.
It'll work out.
But, life, from bacteria onward, do. Those that didn't aren't with us any longer.The universe has no concept of anything.
There ya go.
Just one more thought, it may be that you don't need to deal with logic because others deal with logic for you. You probably hope that your car mechanic or electrician has at least a functional sense of logic. Or it may also be that you're just gullible.
So, for me, as a manager of staff, being logical helped me to be fair. There are times, as management, that I had to discipline someone to send a message to the staff as a whole, or fire someone, to send a message and set a boundary.
On the one-hand, I bellied right up to that, because I wanted to set a standard of excellence that I wanted my department to adhere to. On the other-hand, I didn't want to punish the wrong person. I wanted to punish the slacker, the incompetent, the coaster, rather than the guy who just had some bad luck, recently. When I had to make the decision, more than once, in more than one Firm, I found that it's not so black-and-white. But, taking my personal biases out of the equation, helped me feel that I made the right decision, and, I'd have much less respect for myself if I'd just surcombed to my emotional biases.
Logic isn't the be-all and end-all, but I think the world would be better if it were more universally applied.
