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Does logic matter if it doesn't change the way I live?

#61
HaMMerHeD said:
My life is a constant stream of worry and regret. I know neither of these things are helpful. I know they only make me more miserable. But I also know I am not able to stop either of them. Some people say they are, and I have no reason to doubt them, but I am not. And yet, everyone I've ever talked to tells me I am wrong, and that I can stop both harmful thought processes if I A) want to and B) try. The one thing that *everyone* lacks is a clear instruction as to how to do it. Part A is easy. Part B is a total ****ing mystery.

Logic says that if other people can do it, I should be able to do it also. But here I stand, unable to do it. Thus, either everyone who says that they can stop worrying or let go of regret is lying or wrong, or logic is not always a reliable indicator of reality.
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Man, I'm not criticizing or judging in any way. But if it effects your life for the worse and the burden is too much they do make medication for that. There's no shame in it if it helps. It's all good, man. My sister has OCD (and I know that's not what you have) and I've been telling her for years that she doesn't need to suffer alone.

And sorry if I read too much into your post. I'm not judging.
 
#63
Bocete said:
No.

And even if this were true, this has nothing to do with the 'how' part. I know that just saying 'stop it' doesn't work, a person very close to me has been battling depression all her life. I'd do everything to help her, but I don't know how. This is not a problem of logic, though. There's nothing logical about saying 'make it so' and expecting it to be!
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What I meant was that I am not unique or extraordinary, or rather I am exactly as unique and extraordinary as everyone else, which is not at all. There is logically nothing that other human males can do that I can't do, given time, training, etc.

48thStreetCustom said:
Man, I'm not criticizing or judging in any way. But if it effects your life for the worse and the burden is too much they do make medication for that. There's no shame in it if it helps. It's all good, man. My sister has OCD (and I know that's not what you have) and I've been telling her for years that she doesn't need to suffer alone.

And sorry if I read too much into your post. I'm not judging.
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Yeah I know a lot about medication. I've been dealing with this for coming on 30 years now. I've seen more doctors, counselors, and therapists, than I can remember well enough to count. I've had prescriptions for every anti-depressant and anti-anxiety med you can name, and various combinations of them. Some of them made things worse, some had no effect at all, and some gave me whole new problems. None of them can be said to have improved anything. So if you think the meds out there are guaranteed to work, you would be incorrect. There is no guarantee, and for a certain percentage of depression patients, there are no effective medications or therapy techniques at all.
 
#65
48thStreetCustom said:
Well man, sorry to hear that. Have you tried meditation and spirituality like some other people mentioned? I've never tried it myself. I'd be interested in hearing people's results.

And not to play armchair therapist, but do you have problems concentrating? I say that because losing myself in a book, bass playing or drawing is therapeutic to me. I really value my alone time to let my mind wander.
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Actually, I find that building basses is a pretty effective therapeutic device for me when I can do it. It's not terribly practical, as I can't really afford to burn through a lot of parts and materials every day, or even every week or month. But when I can, it's great.

Spirituality and religion I regard with all the disdain I can muster. Meditation of a kind is sometimes effective at blocking certain destructive thoughts. I suspect my own form of meditation would be unrecognizable to people more familiar with the spiritual/mystical aspects.
 
#66
There is a type of meditation that I learned practicing Zen Buddhism. It really doesn't have to be attached to any religion but is simply a beneficial thing to do.
It is pretty simple:
Sit some somewhere with your back straight and you head held erect but level. Put your hands in your lap or on your thighs. Relax your eyes, don't close them completely just relax and let your eyelids droop. Take a deep breath up from your stomach and slowly release it. Breathe in through your nose and count 1 breathe out trough your mouth and count 2. Keep doing that until you reach a count of ten, then start over again. Focus only on your breaths. Don't be discouraged if your mind starts wandering before you get to a count of 3. Just return your focus and keep counting.
You can do this for 20-30 minutes more or less as you wish. I recommend about 20 minutes to start. Set a timer if you have one.
You can sit on a cushion in a lotus, half lotus or just cross legged you prefer but that is not necessary. Just sitting with your back straight in a chair is okay. Having a quite spot where you won't be interrupted also helps.
 
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#67
HaMMerHeD said:
Actually, I find that building basses is a pretty effective therapeutic device for me when I can do it. It's not terribly practical, as I can't really afford to burn through a lot of parts and materials every day, or even every week or month. But when I can, it's great.

Spirituality and religion I regard with all the disdain I can muster. Meditation of a kind is sometimes effective at blocking certain destructive thoughts. I suspect my own form of meditation would be unrecognizable to people more familiar with the spiritual/mystical aspects.
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Good for you, man. Figure out how to make bass building a priority. I know what you mean. Working with wood and tools is therapeutic.
 
#68
Whenever you encounter a seeming paradox, take that as an indication that you're not considering all the information, or are judging it incorrectly. I don't think that paradoxes actually exist, except when information is being considered within an incomplete or incorrect frame of reference.

For example, "worrying even though it doesn't help, or causes other problems". This is leaving out important details, which I'm going to say is in itself illogical. Instead of judging or saying you "should" do one thing or another, take these opportunities to gain understanding. When we say "why do I worry when I can't change anything?" (rhetorical question), it's not an inquiry, but a judgement. Instead say something like, "what are the things that lead me to worry?" Don't judge, but try to understand. Repeat as necessary.

Once you know all the relevant details, apply logic as needed.
 
#69
48thStreetCustom said:
Sorry, guys. I didn't mean to derail this thread. Posts deleted. Go back to talking about logic.
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No worries, Hammerhead is a good dude and we are just trying to help him out. We are like a big family here. We seldom agree with each other but we do try and help each other out for what is worth.
 
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#70
INTP said:
Whenever you encounter a seeming paradox, take that as an indication that you're not considering all the information, or are judging it incorrectly. I don't think that paradoxes actually exist, except when information is being considered within an incomplete or incorrect frame of reference.

For example, "worrying even though it doesn't help, or causes other problems". This is leaving out important details, which I'm going to say is in itself illogical. Instead of judging or saying you "should" do one thing or another, take these opportunities to gain understanding. When we say "why do I worry when I can't change anything?" (rhetorical question), it's not an inquiry, but a judgement. Instead say something like, "what are the things that lead me to worry?" Don't judge, but try to understand. Repeat as necessary.

Once you know all the relevant details, apply logic as needed.
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Okay, cool. Is a paradox the same thing as two contradictory ideas both being true?
 
#72
INTP said:
I guess I'm saying that the ideas seem contradictory because we're looking at them the wrong way.
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Okay, I went to art school and we were taught to embrace contradictions. Dadaism is all about contradictions. Sometimes combining contradicting symbolism in unrealistic scenarios is the best way to visually illustrate a complex idea. Seriously, try drawing "potential" in a way that people instantly understand. It's hard. Those guys that do those business editorial illustration for in-flight magazines are geniuses.

Let me put this example to you. My sister has a pit bull. Some people say pit bulls scary vicious dangerous dogs and I say they're right. My sister says pit bulls are very affectionate and gentle. I also say she's right. I don't have a problem holding both those conflicting thought in my head. What's your take on it? I guess you could say it's situational.
 
#73
slobake said:
I know there are some very intelligent people here who are schooled in philosophy and what logic really means. I am looking forward to hearing from them and others.
What I think of as logic may be something other than logic, I concede that point right now.
Here is how I see it.
I have been accused of being illogical and I agree I am illogical but not for the reasons some have said. I know that worrying about things in my life won't change anything and will only serve to make me miserable. Still I worry about things sometimes. I think that is illogical but I am getting better at letting things go. That doesn't mean I don't plan and try to make wise informed decisions in my life, it means not staying up all night fretting over things I can't control.
That is just one example I am sure others here can come up with other things we all do that are illogical.
Like the title says, knowing something is illogical doesn't help me unless it changes the was I live.
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Do you have any Supertramp albums?
 
#75
:rollno:
slobake said:
I know there are some very intelligent people here who are schooled in philosophy and what logic really means. I am looking forward to hearing from them and others.
What I think of as logic may be something other than logic, I concede that point right now.
Here is how I see it.
I have been accused of being illogical and I agree I am illogical but not for the reasons some have said. I know that worrying about things in my life won't change anything and will only serve to make me miserable. Still I worry about things sometimes. I think that is illogical but I am getting better at letting things go. That doesn't mean I don't plan and try to make wise informed decisions in my life, it means not staying up all night fretting over things I can't control.
That is just one example I am sure others here can come up with other things we all do that are illogical.
Like the title says, knowing something is illogical doesn't help me unless it changes the was I live.
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Steve, you claim you are a writer. But your posts contain more eyes than potato field has. Stopped counting at 17. That makes your posts all about you. It's NOT all about you.:eek:
 
#76
Winfred said:
The universe has no concept of logic. The stars, planets, water, air, the plants and animals. None of those things or beings has any idea what logic is. Logic is a man-made concept. It only exists in our minds.
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Some would argue (and have!) that logic exists outside our minds and that the universe employs logic (in the sense that it is mathematically-based). It's an interesting question, though, as to whether logic (or mathematics) is discovered, created, or whether the universe simply appears to follow rules of mathematics, or if mathematics just allows us to model well (to the extent we can't see the difference) something that is not actually logical at all. Some would argue (Einstein being one) that quantum mechanics is an imperfect model because it sometimes seems illogical, and thus must be wrong and there is a more logical construct underneath (e.g. hidden variables) but others might argue that since the mathematics we have (Schrodinger, operators, etc) model it well enough then it is logical. I can't really say what the answer is or even if is even a valid question!
 
#78
48thStreetCustom said:
Let me put this example to you. My sister has a pit bull. Some people say pit bulls scary vicious dangerous dogs and I say they're right. My sister says pit bulls are very affectionate and gentle. I also say she's right. I don't have a problem holding both those conflicting thought in my head. What's your take on it? I guess you could say it's situational.
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This has many assumptions, among them are that a generalization about the behavior of a breed of dogs can be made to the exclusion of other generalizations. Common, but quite flawed.
 

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