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Does logic matter if it doesn't change the way I live?

No...their emotional attachment isn't logical at all....just because they made a choice based on emotional attachment doesn't mean it's logical.

The emotional attachment does not outweigh the risk of flooding....(in some places). They will even tell you that they expect the river to flood ( as if it were somehow a badge of honor).

But if ones' life is at risk ...it is illogical.

I will concede that emotion often over-rules logic.
 
No...their emotional attachment isn't logical at all....just because they made a choice based on emotional attachment doesn't mean it's logical.

The emotional attachment does not outweigh the risk of flooding....(in some places). They will even tell you that they expect the river to flood ( as if it were somehow a badge of honor).

But if ones' life is at risk ...it is illogical.

I will concede that emotion often over-rules logic.
Logic is simply about whether two or more assertions are consistent with one another.
 
No....logic doesn't matter if it doesn't change the way you live........

There are those that live by rivers.
Rivers that flood every year and damage the dwelling of the person that lives there and puts their lives at risk.
Logically it would make sense to move farther away from the river.
But they don't.
They reside there year after year...even defending it with statements like " I grew up here so I'm staying here"...or....." This my home no matter what happens".

Logic has no effect on them........so therefor it doesn't matter.

I think I see what you're saying. Logic does matter because there has consequences. I can't remember who's it is, but there's an old saying that goes something like "You can ignore the truth, but you cant ignore the consequences of the truth."
 
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And, I wonder if that might apply to specific disciplines as opposed to the people. For instance, it's common to claim - and I'm not saying that it's true, just repeating the claim, so no offense intended - that psychology isn't a "real" science. Most of the social sciences get that dismissal from time to time, economics, sociology, etc. There are statisticians that would say that they are very skeptical of any sociology studies' conclusions. Would that extend to the sociologists themselves because they specialize in a discipline that necessarily deals with concepts that are difficult to precisely define and have few concrete predictable outcomes?

This is getting a bit away from the original topic, but you bring up something in which I have a lot of interest. In fact, I'd like to write a paper about it. Psychology and sociology have widely diverged in their ontological identities over the years. What I'd call modern psychology, which basically encompasses most psychological research from the 1940s onward - i.e., post-Freud - has firmly cemented itself as a post-positivist discipline. It operates from the assumption that behaviors and the mind exhibit predictable patterns that exist across time-space within a population and that a neutral observer can deduce phenomena with statistical tools. It's the social science that most closely mirrors the physical sciences in both ontology and epistemology. Sociology, on the other hand, has always shifted between positivism and antipositivism/constructionism and even embracing postmodernism. Also, a lot of what falls under the category of "sociology" is almost akin to philosophy, such as the Frankfurt School theorists like Marcuse and early Habermas and poststructuralists like Foucault. Whereas in just about every psychology journal, you'll find experimental methods with quantitative analysis, sociology journals are filled with everything from quantitative true experiments and quasi-experiments to qualitative enthographies, content analyses, grounded theory studies, and phenomenological research.

Since the purpose of science is to predict and quantitative-based research allows one to do so, I'd argue that most quantitative research, particularly using inferential statistics, is science. People sometimes argue that psychology is not a science, and dismiss it on a claim that the discipline doesn't have a central theory or that investigators cannot control all spurious variables. I think that's an indefensible position, because psychology clearly adheres to the scientific method. The fact that psychological phenomena is so complex to prevent an investigator from controlling every conceivable spurious influence does not negate this fact. While psychologists (and quantitative sociologists) have to exercise qualitative discretion by operationally defining variables and establishing construct validity, so do those working in physical sciences; although they may not necessary use those technical terms. Thomas Kuhn illustrated that physical scientists got many things wrong over the years due to faulty assumptions and discipline-related hegemony.

Qualitative research seeks to explain. As such, I would argue that it doesn't raise to the level of being science. However, it is still research and is still a completely valid form of epistemology in which to acquire knowledge about the world. Rigorous and well-done qualitative research is extremely challenging to do. In fact, I'd argue it's more difficult than quantitative research, since you don't have the built-in road maps to establish validity like you do with empirical research. You're not trying to answer falsifiable questions, and as such, you have to be extremely perceptive and sensitive to what the data are telling you.

I think the statisticians' claims that conclusions are suspect in all quantitative sociology research is a bit hyperbolic. However, I do think that journal reviewers often fail in not requiring investigators to be as rigorous and transparent as they should be with establishing that their statistical tests meet the necessary assumptions. Psychological research doesn't have this problem as much, since it's much more correlation- and ANOVA-based, which are tests that don't have as many assumptions. On the other hand, sociology research does run into this problem more, since it's much more reliant on various forms of regression analysis, which usually have many assumptions that need to be met to establish their validity.
 
Loving the thread. Thanks y'all.

I'm keen to come to terms with illogicality - not entirely illogical but there are perhaps dangers inherent whether one makes the attempt or one doesn't. The best ground upon which to stand seems logically to be the best grounds for possible understanding. Where so many have come undone, under arguments that overly simplify or over-complicate matters, is where we now flounder - at the point where we can no longer afford ourselves the luxury of these mediocrities .…

I'd better retire the keyboard for now, before I confuse myself further and disappear in a puff of logic. But first, I found myself needing to clarify one word's meaning, logic, so I headed off to gain some solace - It's always good to be in better control of words that need better definition. And logic's a biggun, from where I'm standing - really the concrete definition of anything and everything is imperative - not always possible - understatement of the neo-century - but we do make do.

Beyond the ins and outs of this topic - I'm still wrestling with those - logic's origins, described in a line of text in the oft inadequate but practical virtual dictionary on my desktop, and one phrase in particular inside that line - there, I took some unexpected joy. Here's the line,

ORIGIN late Middle English : via Old French logique and late Latin logica from Greek logikē (tekhnē) ‘(art) of reason,’ from logos ‘word, reason.’

There. The 'word (reason)' once meant "(art) of reason". Don't you love it? It's all Greek to me :) - the art of reason.
 
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No...their emotional attachment isn't logical at all....just because they made a choice based on emotional attachment doesn't mean it's logical.

The emotional attachment does not outweigh the risk of flooding....(in some places). They will even tell you that they expect the river to flood ( as if it were somehow a badge of honor).

But if ones' life is at risk ...it is illogical.

I will concede that emotion often over-rules logic.
I have to disagree. This assertion that the particular risk/reward trade-off is illogical is discounting the inevitability of end of life. Death is inevitable, and while some people weigh the aesthetic qualities of experience more highly, and others may weigh risk aversion in favor of presumed longevity, these are value judgements. It is not accurate to call these value judgements logic.
 
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My dictionary defines "Logical" as :-

(1) Showing clear sound reasoning.

(2) Expected or reasonable under the circumstances

(3) The science of reasoning

(4) Good reasoning.


If you put yourself in harm's way or death based on a trade-off with an emotional connection....then it doesn't fit any of the four definitions of logic.

So your reasoning would be :- "I'm going to die someday anyway...so I might as well live here".......

Replacing the word "logic" with " value judgement" is not logical because you are trading off the logic involved for a "value" emotion-based decision that has erased 'logic' from the equation.

But in reality most human decisions are not based on logic at all...
Although they will attempt to delude themselves by thinking they made the logical choice.
 
So your reasoning would be :- "I'm going to die someday anyway...so I might as well live here".......
That is not what I said, nor is it what I meant.
If you put yourself in harm's way or death based on a trade-off with an emotional connection....then it doesn't fit any of the four definitions of logic.
Saying that logic is not relevant or does not apply is not the same thing as saying that something is illogical.
 
Since the purpose of science is to predict and quantitative-based research allows one to do so, I'd argue that most quantitative research, particularly using inferential statistics, is science. People sometimes argue that psychology is not a science, and dismiss it on a claim that the discipline doesn't have a central theory or that investigators cannot control all spurious variables. I think that's an indefensible position, because psychology clearly adheres to the scientific method. The fact that psychological phenomena is so complex to prevent an investigator from controlling every conceivable spurious influence does not negate this fact. While psychologists (and quantitative sociologists) have to exercise qualitative discretion by operationally defining variables and establishing construct validity, so do those working in physical sciences; although they may not necessary use those technical terms. Thomas Kuhn illustrated that physical scientists got many things wrong over the years due to faulty assumptions and discipline-related hegemony.
A discipline can be a science without producing a body of reliable or useful knowledge.

There is a controversy going on right now in medical research, called the "reproducibility crisis." Some folks are claiming that a fair number -- possibly the majority -- of results published based on accepted statistical criteria, are likely to be overturned if subjected to repetition. Results that are presented to the public with a sense of urgency, having to do with diet, or the effects of medications, are regularly overturned. One of the apparent issues is an exclusive reliance on statistical hypothesis testing to establish results.

Pursuing a field of doesn't guarantee that mother nature will reveal her secrets at a rate sufficient to meet the demand to publish. It doesn't ensure that bad results will be swept out of the knowledge base.

I don't know the extent to which this issue pertains to psychology.
 
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There is a controversy going on right now in medical research, called the "reproducibility crisis." Some folks are claiming that a fair number -- possibly the majority -- of results published based on accepted statistical criteria, are likely to be overturned if subjected to repetition. Results that are presented to the public with a sense of urgency, having to do with diet, or the effects of medications, are regularly overturned. One of the apparent issues is an exclusive reliance on statistical hypothesis testing to establish results.
On this subject, I've come to think that the correlation-causation is harder to discern than people realize. There are too many variables to control for. Also, you can't exactly do a double blind study on foods without distorting the food to the point where you've changed additional variables.
 
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A discipline can be a science without producing a body of reliable or useful knowledge.

There is a controversy going on right now in medical research, called the "reproducibility crisis." Some folks are claiming that a fair number -- possibly the majority -- of results published based on accepted statistical criteria, are likely to be overturned if subjected to repetition. Results that are presented to the public with a sense of urgency, having to do with diet, or the effects of medications, are regularly overturned. One of the apparent issues is an exclusive reliance on statistical hypothesis testing to establish results.

Pursuing a field of doesn't guarantee that mother nature will reveal her secrets at a rate sufficient to meet the demand to publish. It doesn't ensure that bad results will be swept out of the knowledge base.

I don't know the extent to which this issue pertains to psychology.

I'm far from an expert on the medical field, but one thing I've casually observed about medical research is that it often uses very small sample sizes. This may be a lot of the issue with reproducibility. It was one of the primary issues with Wakefield's study that initially set off the scare that a causal link exists between vaccination and autism. Of course, more rigorous studies came along and none of them could replicate the results (yet people still believe there's a link because a former Playboy model tells them there is, but I digress).
 
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"antipositivism"... "Aristotlean logic"... "risk/reward trade-off" ... "ORIGIN late Middle English"

thems-fightin-words.jpg
 
I'm far from an expert on the medical field, but one thing I've casually observed about medical research is that it often uses very small sample sizes. This may be a lot of the issue with reproducibility. It was one of the primary issues with Wakefield's study that initially set off the scare that a causal link exists between vaccination and autism. Of course, more rigorous studies came along and none of them could replicate the results (yet people still believe there's a link because a former Playboy model tells them there is, but I digress).
Small sample sizes are a problem, but I think another is that statistical hypothesis testing is the only tool being used. Results could be strengthened by having other forms of corroboration, such as theory or a web of interrelated knowledge. For instance, the Higgs Boson was reported when they reached a certain level of statistical goodness, but they were also looking at multiple experiments, confirmatory evidence from Fermilab, and theoretical predictions.
 
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This is good stuff, from Tom Lane's link above,

"Upon this first, and in one sense this sole, rule of reason, that in order to learn you must desire to learn, and in so desiring not be satisfied with what you already incline to think, there follows one corollary which itself deserves to be inscribed upon every wall of the city of philosophy: Do not block the way of inquiry."
—Charles Sanders Peirce, "First Rule of Logic"
 
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which can not fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--HERBERT SPENCER
This is a brilliant quote, but... if you've already made up your mind before the investigation, isn't that the same thing as contempt? What if you haven't already made up your mind but during the investigation, you do, and you decide that nothing will change your mind. Is that the same thing as contempt? Isn't this quote saying that the way to comprehend truth is to have an open-mind? Is that the opposite of faith?
 

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