Does more air movement provide a better low volume solo practice tone?

[brianrost]

For solo practice, you definitely do not need a second cab for your Rumble.

Need more low end? Put it on the floor in a corner of the room.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Yes, so far the sound I like best from the R500c is when it's on a stand elevated 2 feet from the floor. Playing while sitting is awkward for me, so I stand 6 to 8 feet away. It also somehow seems to result in less variation in tone when I walk around the amp.

Would there be a lobing, dispersion, reflection or other pattern change that would result in less low bass than the 210 by itself on the floor, or would it result lots of low bass from the 115 as it's close to the floor?

Don’t overthink things. In a big room there can be issues if you look for them. Try it and see, if it sounds good don’t worry about it. In a small room at low volume it isn’t a concern.

 

[agedhorse]

@Wasnex thank you for that detailed explanation.

If I understand correctly:

• The lobing patterns are why I hear significant tone changes when I walk around my (2x10) R500c when playing, but I hear much less tone change when I move around my (1x12) R60c.
• Adding a 1x15 under the 2x10 is going to make that position dependence even worse in my music room.
• On stage, for an audience, the lobing effect isn't as noticeable because their ears are at less of an angle due to the distance from the amp(s), so the combination works better.

Am I understanding that correctly, or am I off in space somewhere?

Not necessarily the issue or even an issue. There is a big difference between “in theory” and “in practice”.

If you want a better sound, elevate your cabinet to ear level and sit near by. It makes a big difference.

Good advice.

I haven't purchased the 115 cab yet, and the drive to get it is pretty far so I'm trying to determine if it's worth the effort and cost.



The drivers in the R500c are top to bottom, so no need to rotate, but they're offset a bit so I'm not sure how that would affect the lobing/dispersion:
View attachment 7404155



Does this mean the tone will be more consistent than it is now when walking around the amp/cab stack?

Not necessarily.

I'm sorry. My question was worded badly. What I was trying to ask was related to this:


Does this mean that the addition of the 115 cab under the 210 combo would provide a more consistent tone (when walking around) than with the 210 combo alone due to the narrower vertical dispersion. In other words, do 3 vertical drivers (15 + 10 + 10) provide a more consistent lobing/dispersion pattern than just the 2x10?

Or does that mean I'll have 3 separate horizontal dispersion lobes, one at each driver's height?

BTW: I really appreciate your knowledge sharing. I'm just trying to make sure I understand it correctly!

No, again in practice this may not matter or even be a real issue.

Don’t overthink things. In a big room there can be issues if you look for them. Try it and see, if it sounds good don’t worry about it. In a small room at low volume it isn’t a concern.

More good advice.

 

[jnewmark]

If you want a better sound, elevate your cabinet to ear level and sit near by. It makes a big difference.

Not only in your home but on the gig, also.

 

[Wasnex]

There is a big difference between “in theory” and “in practice”.

Perhaps expanding on this bit would be useful to the OP.

AFAIK:

The lobing basically causes the off-axis response to vary by frequency. Essentially you get holes/nulls in the response across the axis of driver alignment. So as you move from left to right in front of the cab, the response of the direct sound coming from the cab can seem uneven.

Lobing is far less of a factor in a small space because reflected sound from the walls, floor, and ceiling evens out what you. For example, your ears might be in a null for the direct sound, but hear a reflection off the nearest surface.

AFAIK the early reflections set up additional patterns of destructive interference as well. So while the early reflections may make the lobing less apparent, they don't necessarily improve sound quality.

Elevating the cab and aiming it at your head delivers the full range of direct sound to your ears. The idea is to hear more of the direct sound. AFAIK the nominal level of indirect sound would probably stay about the same. However, changing the location of the speaker and direction it is aimed in can modify how sound bounces around the room. So it can be useful to move a cab around a room to find locations where the overall sound is as good as it can be.

 

[agedhorse]

Yet it may be (and often is) a non-issue.

 

[DavidEdenAria]

8x10 problem solved...bwwaaa.

 

[kevk]

……..My music room is relatively small (14' x 11'). Most of my practice is solo at relatively low volumes. I'm looking for the nicest sound at that low volume…….

Would this additional air movement provide an even nicer low volume practice tone?……..

Does anyone else here practice and/or play at low volumes with a lot of speaker drivers for more air movement?

Ime…more woofers absolutely sound better at low volume play. I’ve done this a/b experiment many times—always prefer more woofers. To be clear, I’m not increasing overall volume—it’s about bass presence/ear sensation …it’s just more enjoyable.

I actually use an Ampeg rig (V4B/H810E) in a room size similar to your’s. I don’t get caught up in calculations, specs, or speaker placement…just tried it both ways, side by side.

I also have 4ohm Bergantino 610, 410, and 312’s (which I often combine for 2 ohm)…again, much more enjoyable with more woofers at same overall volume.

With this concept, I’m not trying to work within a band mix (obviously would be crazy/too much)…but in a solo situation at low volume, it seriously works for me in practice. Often play at 1-3am and don’t want to disturb anyone (and not a fan of using headphones, if I can avoid it…)

 

[chris_b]

Does anyone else here practice and/or play at low volumes with a lot of speaker drivers for more air movement?

For playing at home I use my Aguilar TH500 and a Barefaced One10. Even at a whisper the tone is great.

IMO small mainstream combos will never sound as good as a well designed cab and a good amp.

 

[Never2Late]

Thank you to everyone who replied to this thread.

I bought 4 more amps and spent a lot of time experimenting.

I had two Rumble 500v3 (2x10) amps, two Rumble 100v3 (1x12) amps, a Markbass CMD amp (1x15), a Rumble 60v1 (1x12), and a Rumble 40v3 (1x10).

The experimentation was with the two 500v3's (4x10" total), two 100v3's (2x12" total), and a 500v3/Markbass duo (2x10" + 1x15").

TL;DR version:

• In my music room at the volumes I play, 2 of these large amps were just too much.
• The amps sounded the best when up on a stand.
  • When running 2 amps with one on the floor, it was boomy.
  • 2 amps on top of each other on the stand sounded better than 2 amps with 1 on the floor, but put the controls out of sight (too high)
  • 2 amps on top of each other on the stand provided more deepness than 1 amp, but didn't provide a material improvement in tone (IMO).
• With any combination of 2 amps, the tone changed significantly more when moving around the room, creating sweet spots and awful spots, and some in between.

The biggest improvements came by playing a LOT with knobs and amp location in the room. The best overall tones I found were when running just one of large amps, up on a stand 24" off of the floor, centered on a wall across from me. All 3 amps sound fantastic that way, by themselves, with the right knob adjustments.

 

[Never2Late]

Separately:

I couldn't get a tone I loved from the Rumble 40 (1x10). Unlike the larger amps, which have plenty of pleasant, non-boomy low-low bass below the frequency of the "bass" knob, the R40's bass knob controls its lowest frequencies, so turning down bass to reduce boominess eliminated all bass, including the deep deep lows I find nice during practice. That's fine for cutting through the mix with mids, with other players, but I don't find it as sonically pleasing for practice.


So for me, the answer to my question (whether more air movement provides a better tone at practice volumes) is yes, up to a point. Anything less than the 1x12 in the R100 (and R60) wasn't satisfying (for me in my music room with my basses). Anything more than the R500 (2x10) and Markbass (1x15) was too much, with the lobing & reflections & echoes wreaking havoc.

 

[Never2Late]

More detailed version:

Location was probably the biggest variable in tone, both amp location (including height) and where I stood listening in the room. Moving the amp(s) around the room and up and down, and even opening and closing the door to the room, changed the tone I was hearing.

And that variation seemed to increase exponentially when I added a second amp.


Rumble 100v3 amps

The single R100 ended up across the room, up on a stand, both ports plugged, with the knobs close to "true flat" (10, 11, 2, 10). The tone of the single R100 that way is nice.

Adding the second R100 did bring more deepness, but that didn't provide an improvement in tone (for me). Having the second R100 on the floor under the first brought in boominess, which required dialing the bass knob almost to zero to minimize, which actually degraded the overall tone.

Having the second R100 on top of the first, up on the stand, sounded much better than having it on the floor. There was a bit more deepness, but again I had to dial down the bass as it was just too much, resulting in a tone that wasn't materially better. And the top amp was so high that I couldn't see the controls, which became an issue.

The second R100 increased the variation in tone, depending on location in the room, especially in corners, which were low-bass heavy.



Rumble 500v3 amps

The results of the R500 amps almost exactly mimic those of the R100's.

The difference is that the variation in tone, depending on location, was much larger. I'm guessing this is due to the 4x10" drivers and the lobing effect described by @Wasnex, on top of the reflections, echoes, etc.

While I was able to find sweet spots in the room with 2xR500's, it just didn't provide a material improvement in tone (in my music room at practice volumes). I'm guessing in a large hall or outdoors it would be much different.



Rumble 500v3 + Markbass CMD

Separately (individually) each of these amps sound great. The 2 together mimic the results of the two R500's described above.



Conclusion, again

In the end, I found that the tones that I like the best for practice are with the (larger) amps running individually.

 

[Never2Late]

Of course, this is the outcome that most of you predicted. But it was still fun and educational for me to run through it real life.

 

[agedhorse]

The conclusions you are drawing with the Rumble 40 are rediculous imo, you are comparing a $249
amp to amps that cost more than double. There are a lot of compromises required to be able to reach that price point.

 

[Never2Late]

The conclusions you are drawing with the Rumble 40 are rediculous imo, you are comparing a $249
amp to amps that cost more than double. There are a lot of compromises required to be able to reach that price point.

That's good feedback. I probably should have left out anything to do with that amp (and the Rumble 60v1) and just listed the 2-versus-1 large amp comparisons.

 

[agedhorse]

The Rumble 60 is a very different amp, 20+ years old and pretty unrelated to the Rumbles of today