Does not being able to play jazz = being a poor bass player?

[Altitude]

You're going to get a lot of righteous indignation answers from people who haven't studied jazz.

The truth is that jazz exposes a significant amount of the guts of how all music works. It's all "theory" collectively, but in a granular sense things like:

• How to pick notes that work well with other notes
• How to create and release musical tension
• How to hear and respond to communication that happens among players in the precise moment

...are examples of things important in any musical style that are addressed and taught as part of jazz instruction.

So, no - not being able to play jazz does not make a person a poor player. But a given player will invariably become better if they study jazz, even if they don't come out of it as a "jazz player."

 

[bkbirge]

A quote from Stanley Clarke years ago has stuck with me, I don't remember the exact phrase but it was something like .. "Anyone who wants to master their instrument naturally gravitates towards jazz." I'd tend to agree. That said, I'd love to hear a classical violin or a tabla virtuoso's take on that statement.

If you don't like jazz then why would you torture yourself by playing it just to get good at something you don't like in the hopes it might make you better in other areas? Theory is theory, it's not just for jazz, and that is worth learning.

 

[Element Zero]

Nah. When I started playing bass I joined the Jazz Band at my school. The way I saw it, I got to play. I learned a bunch about basic and semi advanced theory. After 4 years of Jazz in high school, the next 20 years I haven't touched it. Never really liked it to begin with. But I got to play with other musicians who wanted to play music with other musicians. That same idea still holds true to me and the people I play with.

 

[glocke1]

A quote from Stanley Clarke years ago has stuck with me, I don't remember the exact phrase but it was something like .. "Anyone who wants to master their instrument naturally gravitates towards jazz." I'd tend to agree. That said, I'd love to hear a classical violin or a tabla virtuoso's take on that statement.

If you don't like jazz then why would you torture yourself by playing it just to get good at something you don't like in the hopes it might make you better in other areas? Theory is theory, it's not just for jazz, and that is worth learning.

Never said I didn't like it (assuming that was intended for me). I actually like it quite a bit, I am just terrible at playing it.

 

[Mushroo]

Life is too short to play music that doesn't speak to you.

My observation is that players who learn a little bit of jazz sometimes get worse at playing other genres like rock, blues, or country. They can't resist the urge to improvise or reharmonize and show off their new knowledge, instead of playing the correct bass line note-for-note like they used to. A specific example would be, I often hear jazz players adding 7ths to chords that are supposed to be voiced as triads or root-5th power chords.

That's not meant to be an anti-jazz statement. More analogous to a golf player who takes a lesson with a pro; often times their game will temporarily get worse while they are unlearning old habits and assimilating the new information.

 

[PauFerro]

I would say no -- I agree that jazz makes you a better player in many other genres because you understand chord/scale relationships, can communicate better with other musicians, and understand available note choices. But I have played with really good rock players who know very little about jazz. Blues players particularly that seem to be tight in the pocket, play just the right fills, etcetera...

As far as the frustration goes, been there -- I finally found a way of improvising that works for me, and part of my success was found in IGNORING the opinions of people who gave conflicting information about whether I was doing it right. I listened to many other players, however, and eventually, synthesized the best of what I read in various books. This led to my own approach that works for me very well. I even wrote a short, simple book on it with the simplest, most powerful 'revelations' I could find. That had me improvising very quickly in C. Very happy now!

In some cases, I think it can make certain musicians WORSE because they get this snobbery about their playing and the genre that stops them from being a student of the world of music in general. And it also shuts them off from beats and riffs and motifs in other genres, hurting their creativity.

 

[rufus.K]

I play jazz and am a horrible metal bassist. I dont see how one could expect thing "A" to correlate to thing "B"

 

[PauFerro]

I play jazz and am a horrible metal bassist. I dont see how one could expect thing "A" to correlate to thing "B"

I consider myself a much better jazz bassist than a rock bassist too. In rock, the tune has to sound like the original in many cases, and I find that constricting. The musicians are also NOT chart readers in the majority of cases, so I have to learn other ways of communicating with them, and I find it hard. Yet they seem to be able to do it with each other just fine. I could say more, but I find rock harder to play than jazz right now. And then, there's the pigeon hole. "He's a jazz player, so he [insert perceived deficit here in the rock genre]". I heard that from a guy in a band once decades ago. In fact, people resort to that kind of stereotypical way of decision making a lot in life in general. And we all bear the brunt of it based on our typical outward characteristics.

 

[JimmyM]

I play jazz and am a horrible metal bassist. I dont see how one could expect thing "A" to correlate to thing "B"

I don't play much Jazz and I certainly don't call myself a jazz bass player, but I did study jazz in lessons. with a jazz background, it makes playing other styles so much easier where it's really just a matter of having an affinity for a different style and picking up on its fine points through listening to music in that style.

To answer the original question, though, jazz musician certainly believe that musicians who play other types of music are inferior. That seems to be changing as of late, but there are still a very large amount of jazz musicians who have no respect for any other kind of music. I simply don't worry about them... I do what I do, I do it to the best of my ability, and if they don't like it, I really don't care.

 

[BassBrass]

Miles Davis (and Ornette Coleman) saved us from "jazz". Maybe James Brown. Vocal and instrumental music that modulated allot was standard for a long long time and Every musician was literate in harmony like a so called jazz musician is today, but modulation is pretty irrelevant to music since, I don't know, 1949? It's all about rhythm and texture (the sound), riff or melody now, not that harmony and modulation isn't present, it's just a part. It's isn't Easy for a modern musician to become proficient in an art form based on popular music that is no longer heard.

I'm not sure at all how my jazz studies (years and years, I love it) have helped me set up a mid tempo drone groove in D. They seem to be two totally different skills in different idioms. Although I did see/hear Charlie Hayden drone on 2 notes for 20 minutes live with Pat Metheny at Riles RIP. for both Riles & Charlie

 

[micguy]

I'm sure I could play jazz, should I choose to study it. However, as many decades as I have playing other music, and with all the gigs I have to prepare for nowadays, I'm pretty certain I will never get around to studying jazz.

I'm perfectly OK with that.

 

[HolmeBass]

I think thats all that I can expect to come out of trying to play jazz, is to become a better all around player. I don't have any delusions about becoming a strong jazz bassist, mainly because the oppurtunities to really play and get into that stuff just don't really exist where I live it. To put that into perspective, the ensemble workshop Im taking is a little over two hours away from me out on Long Island. There is nothing similar in my area that is offered. The upside of that though is the players are better, most of them in this ensemble are young kids who are either in or on their way to places like Juliard.

Sounds like a fantastic opportunity and a great challenge! Good luck. I take it the material is a bit beyond "Autumn Leaves", "Song For My Father", or "Cold Duck Time"? Are you working on Rhythm changes?

I feel like my playing is in the same place as you describe your own. And while I can and do improvise modally, playing along with the songs on Kind Of Blue shows me how much depth there can be there, the truly awesome interplay between Mr PC and Bill Evans (or Wynton Kelly, I can't tell who playing on which tracks) shows me there is a depth possible that I don't get yet.

 

[thehindteet]

Over the past 30 odd years I've dabbled in it on occasion, and each time I get frustrated and stop.

somewhat orthogonal to your question, but I would be curious to hear you describe the dabbling and the frustration. You certainly don't need to be fluent in jazz to be a good player, but it does seem like you have a curiosity about learning it.

As a lifelong struggling jazz student I can relate to that. As a style, people come at it in a lot of different ways, its confusing to know who to listen to, sometimes its a matter of waiting til the right time when you're ready to learn something.

 

[Bassbeater]

In many styles of popular music "jazzy" playing is considered bad. We might as well ponder if not being able to play with a pick makes you a poor bassist.

 

[Mike Sorr]

I know we're all supposed to like Jazz and pretend that when we get home from a hard day of whatever it is we do for money, we kick off our shoes and recline in our favorite easy chair to Steps Ahead or some such. I've always been curious to know how many people really like Jazz versus how many just say they do because they think they're supposed to. I can get into some Jazz, but for the most part it isn't my first choice. No, I can't play it and I never really wanted to. But I agree completely with the person who commented that learning the theory behind it can only help you become a better player regardless of your preferred style.

 

[Bassbeater]

Dbling Down!
Music theory does not exist without music.
Music does exist without music theory.
Theory heavy music tends to serve the books instead of the ears IMO. A lot of jazz sounds like scale exercises to me. I hear a lot of accomplished jazz players tell me all rock music sounds the same, so I think it's just a matter of cultural taste and acclimation really.

 

[MVE]

Start with one jazz song. (Cherokee, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Softly as in a Morning Sunrise... are a few of mine)
Take a few months and learn it.
After you know that one song well, start the next one.
Make sure you KNOW the chords. You need to be able to call out each chord while just listening to the song. This is very important as it will allow you to use those chords in other songs.
After a while, you will know several songs and a whole bunch of chords and will be well on your way to playing "jazz".
Whether or not you do it "well" is a subject for your audience to decide.

 

[glocke1]

somewhat orthogonal to your question, but I would be curious to hear you describe the dabbling and the frustration. You certainly don't need to be fluent in jazz to be a good player, but it does seem like you have a curiosity about learning it.

As a lifelong struggling jazz student I can relate to that. As a style, people come at it in a lot of different ways, its confusing to know who to listen to, sometimes its a matter of waiting til the right time when you're ready to learn something.

by "dabbling" i mean I'll get involved in lessons or ensemble classes, and ultimately get frustrated by the fact I have such a hard time with it and I'll stop playing it for years.

I think if I have had access to more players who were interested in playing it, things would be different.

 

[Mushroo]

Dbling Down!
Music theory does not exist without music.
Music does exist without music theory.
Theory heavy music tends to serve the books instead of the ears IMO. A lot of jazz sounds like scale exercises to me. I hear a lot of accomplished jazz players tell me all rock music sounds the same, so I think it's just a matter of cultural taste and acclimation really.

Great post. You've hit the nail on the head why jazz has lost its popularity through the decades. In the early days, jazz was based on familiar, catchy, popular songs and melodies. To the listener of the time, it didn't sound like scale/mode exercises, but rather like something you might hear the average person whistling to themselves as they walk down the street. Nowadays, those old songs aren't as familiar to most of us (young people out on the town aren't likely to bring their date to a Gershwin musical), so jazz has lost its cultural foundation in the "Great American Songbook."

There are certainly a few jazz acts out there who play familiar modern pop tunes, in the spirit of early jazz but updated for a modern cultural context.

 

[Mili]

To me Jazz for a Bass player is like Mathematics for an engineer. I don't agree with being a poor Bass player without ability to playing Jazz but i can't imagine a really GOOD bass player who doesn't know Jazz.