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Does power corrupt?

lomo

lomo

passionate hack
Supporting Member
Apr 15, 2006
14,672
15,940
Montreal
#1
Slippery slope. Been playing 7 years. Started with a 50 watt combo in my livin' room and was sure I'd never play out. Never dimed the volume of that BA112. Few years later started garage band gigging (usually sans FOH) and evolved to LM11 with a couple of Epi cabs. I never needed anything over half the master gain, even at small outdoor gigs. Thought anything over 500W was a waste unless the goal was a stadium tour or hearing loss. THEN we started doing an acoustic, plugged set and to counteract my ABG feedback I've been minimizing my onboard pre volume and cranking my LM2......to ten (with gain also maxed and no clipping). I still have to dig in for volume-bad for my technique and my right hand, So I find myself yearning for headroom and willing to haul a more traditional sized head. Is it common to progressively seek more power:D:D:D? Do most people with over 500 watts play really big stages? Any other tips for taming my ABG feedback?
 
#3
Ever since I got a little power amp installed on my car stereo in high school, I have been of the opinion that more power makes music better, regardless of the volume coming out of your speakers. Especially for the bass frequencies, suddenly I was able to hear bass at low volumes and the music sounded gooood.....oh the good ol' days.
 
#4
lomo said:
Slippery slope. Been playing 7 years. Started with a 50 watt combo in my livin' room and was sure I'd never play out. Never dimed the volume of that BA112. Few years later started garage band gigging (usually sans FOH) and evolved to LM11 with a couple of Epi cabs. I never needed anything over half the master gain, even at small outdoor gigs. Thought anything over 500W was a waste unless the goal was a stadium tour or hearing loss. THEN we started doing an acoustic, plugged set and to counteract my ABG feedback I've been minimizing my onboard pre volume and cranking my LM2......to ten (with gain also maxed and no clipping). I still have to dig in for volume-bad for my technique and my right hand, So I find myself yearning for headroom and willing to haul a more traditional sized head. Is it common to progressively seek more power:D:D:D? Do most people with over 500 watts play really big stages? Any other tips for taming my ABG feedback?
Click to expand...

I would check out the DB part of the site. Your issue has NOTHING to do with power, but with gain structue and EQ. It doesn't matter where the knobs are set if you have a very weak signal going into the amp.

My guess is, you need to bring that gain back up on your ABG, set your amp gain structure normally, and then get an EQ unit that is specially made for DB, with a notch filter and or lot's of narrow Q graphic EQ band.
 
#5
coyoteboy said:
Acoustic Image.

all the power, none of the corruption.
Click to expand...

That's a great example.
AI has a lot of power, but they design their cabinets to be full-range, and small - thus they're not very efficient. They take a lot of power but don't get very loud.

Plug the same AI into another big full range efficient cabinet and they're incredibly powerful.

A powerful amp like an AI lets you do both. Small gigs with a light load in, or huge gigs with a big cab. No corruption - all control.
 
#6
KJung said:
I would check out the DB part of the site. Your issue has NOTHING to do with power, but with gain structue and EQ. It doesn't matter where the knobs are set if you have a very weak signal going into the amp.

My guess is, you need to bring that gain back up on your ABG, set your amp gain structure normally, and then get an EQ unit that is specially made for DB, with a notch filter and or lot's of narrow Q graphic EQ band.
Click to expand...


Many thanks. What freq would I need to cut? Why an eq designed for DB-can't a head with a more refined eq cut where I'll need it?
 
#7
Yeah, what KJung said...except...

I recall reading an interview with Gary Willis a number of years ago where he mentioned that he hardly digs in at all and lets his amplifier supply the volume. That sounded reasonable to me, so...

I was playing small- to medium-sized bar gigs with 100 - 200 watts and digging in quite a bit. I then stepped up to 600 watts and backed off my finger pressure a lot. I found it easier to play with good technique, and easier to get what I wanted tone-wise and contrast-wise out of my finger tips.

I still play some small- to medium-sized gigs, and my power amp is now 1,100 watts. I continue to dig in less and less and get better control and contrast, IMHO. Of course you have to scale everything back gain-wise if you're gonna pop or slap with that much power behind you!
 
#9
lomo said:
Is it common to progressively seek more power:D:D:D?
Click to expand...

Are you new here? yes it is

lomo said:
Do most people with over 500 watts play really big stages? Any other tips for taming my ABG feedback?
Click to expand...

I have a 1900 watt carvin rig and i don't play any huge shows *may change within the next year*. I've found that (correct me if i'm wrong) having the headroom seems to allow more low end even at lower volumes.

Either way, who doesn't love turning it up just to shake the walls every now and then?

About the feedback, i believe they have feedback resistant plugs that you can install into the soundhole of your acoustic.
 
#12
scottbass said:
Yeah, what KJung said...except...

I recall reading an interview with Gary Willis a number of years ago where he mentioned that he hardly digs in at all and lets his amplifier supply the volume. That sounded reasonable to me, so...

I was playing small- to medium-sized bar gigs with 100 - 200 watts and digging in quite a bit. I then stepped up to 600 watts and backed off my finger pressure a lot. I found it easier to play with good technique, and easier to get what I wanted tone-wise and contrast-wise out of my finger tips.

I still play some small- to medium-sized gigs, and my power amp is now 1,100 watts. I continue to dig in less and less and get better control and contrast, IMHO. Of course you have to scale everything back gain-wise if you're gonna pop or slap with that much power behind you!
Click to expand...

Yeah. Until the ABG feedback issue, 500 watts of the LM2 and an Epi stack provided headroom aplenty and allowed a very light touch. I'm gonna try a more powerful head because I like trying things:D, but it sounds like Kjung is right and my setup just isn't geared for an ABG. I see that Radial has a designated box that's a pre designed for piezo-equipped acoustic instruments that has specialized filters to cut feedback.......another 300 accessory.....better get back to work!
 
#13
Having your Gain way back and Master cranked is not solving your feedback issue- lack of volume is. What you need to do is turn back up, then try and notch out the frequency that causes the feedback. Is there a little graphic EQ on the bass? Sometimes adjusting this will do it. Or you may get lucky and find that one of the EQ knobs on the LM will do it. No? Consider an EQ pedal like this one, you'll probably discover that the feedback happens around 250-500Hz:
http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXR-M108-Ten-Band-Graphic-EQ?sku=151115
 
#14
Feedback has been a problem for acoustic instrument players from the start. If your ABG has sound holes try plugging them. That's what most guitar players do. Increase your basses volume to just shy of maximum to allow yourself a boost should you need it. reduce gain as much as possible. Bring master to about 60% and bring the gain up until you are loud enough.

Paul
 
#17
low power = maxing volume and then adjusting eq to be heard in mix

high power = adjusting volume to be heard, leaving eq wherever the hell you want it

Stereo high power = adjusting volume to be heard, leaving eq wherever you want it and having a spare power channel for whomever might need it.

:D
 
#19
Jeff Berlin spoke of turning up your amps and letting them work for you. Smokin' with a light touch all night is amazing. Unless you're in the Clash.
Hand damage from playing to hard is not funny and can be permanent. So stop whimpin' get some watts and turn up by turning down. It's cool to get a whisper and then a boom from your rig. It's dynamics. Music is dynamics. We bassists get to demonstrate this by example in case the other players don't know about it.:rollno::eek::bassist:;);)
 
#20
chadds said:
Jeff Berlin spoke of turning up your amps and letting them work for you. Smokin' with a light touch all night is amazing. Unless you're in the Clash.
Hand damage from playing to hard is not funny and can be permanent. So stop whimpin' get some watts and turn up by turning down. It's cool to get a whisper and then a boom from your rig. It's dynamics. Music is dynamics. We bassists get to demonstrate this by example in case the other players don't know about it.:rollno::eek::bassist:;);)
Click to expand...

Just to clarify again, his issue is not power at all. In order to control feedback on an ABG, he has turned down the preamp on his instrument almost completely. As a result, the very low level signal going into his amp is not capable of driving the power section of the amp to anywhere near full output. As was mentioned by a few others (and myself earlier), this is a pure EQ issue period (i.e., feedback control of a wonky ABG). Once he fixes his feedback issue by either learning a bit more about the EQ on his current amp, or getting a 'DB oriented' external EQ with a narrow band notch type filter, he can turn up again and all will be well.

I would again suggest that all who are talking about 'power' go back and read the initial post. The only thing that will happen for the OP if he gets an amp with more power is... well.... nothing.
 

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