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Double Bass Doubling vs Mixing

Ric Vice

Supporting Member
Jul 2, 2005
14,294
12,464
Olivette, Missouri
Hello,
I was thinking that while their are many pre amps that are great for mixing
a microphone and pickup, like the Grace Designs Felix, Headway EDB-2, AI Flex,
Acoustic Box Live, and others their don't seem to be any preamps that handle
doubling with Double Bass and Bass Guitar. My solution was to just use the Felix
in those situations, but it's a very pristine sounding preamp that doesn't really
EQ bass guitar as well as say a 3Leaf Audio Enabler. The Euphonic Audio Doubler
is one of the few pre's that addresses this. Just my take.

Ric
 
Ric, what makes the Doubler better in this regard? I unfortunately have no experience with EA gear so I'm curious. I figured that both channels would have that uber-clean flavor to them.

Additionally, I've always been perplexed by EAs using 500hz for the 'BG' channel and 800 hz for the 'DB' channel. For my purposes I'd reverse them. On a super flat amp I generally find myself needing to boost somewhere around 800-1k hz for BG and cut somewhere around 200-500 hz on my DB. Maybe my EQ needs and preferences are uncommon!
 
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Ric, what makes the Doubler better in this regard? I unfortunately have no experience with EA gear so I'm curious. I figured that both channels would have that uber-clean flavor to them.

For me, a Doubler preamp for upright and electric needs to be pristine and uncolored for upright whether it is just a piezo and/or mic and/or mix, and for electric it needs to be colored. For electric I have had two amps that have had a very musical voicing, a Thunderfunk (I no longer own) and an Eden WT500 I still own, great parametric EQ, 2 ohm stable with 500 watts at 4 ohms, but the down side is, is that it is 2 rack units tall and it weighs a ton. I just bought an Eden WTDI preamp (its tiny) and it makes any amp sound like my Eden WT550 so I am going to sell my WT550 for electric (my "I'm not not proud" plug for my classified for the amp on the electric side...).

I'd personally love a preamp that could 1) handle and mix a piezo and mic for upright, 2) also provide a channel you could select for bass amp emulation or have the chips used by Eden or other manufacture amps to give a colored voicing for electric, and have features like a nice parametric EQ, maybe compression, notch/high pass filter, DI out, maybe a tube that can be switched in or out, etc...
 
Ric, what makes the Doubler better in this regard? I unfortunately have no experience with EA gear so I'm curious. I figured that both channels would have that uber-clean flavor to them.

Additionally, I've always been perplexed by EAs using 500hz for the 'BG' channel and 800 hz for the 'DB' channel. For my purposes I'd reverse them. On a super flat amp I generally find myself needing to boost somewhere around 800-1k hz for BG and cut somewhere around 200-500 hz on my DB. Maybe my EQ needs and preferences are uncommon!

Scott,
I've played through one a couple of times and liked the BG sound coming off of either of the two channels. I agree with you on your EQ points, but it didn't seem to be an issue with the Doubler MK II. I did own a Walter Woods MI-400-8 that had different voicings on each Channel. and I although I liked the EQ setting on the DB channel, it was a pretty subtile difference. It was also kind of weird that Walter voiced Channel 2 for DB. I don't know what the differences were between the two channels.
 
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I really liked the ABox II for electric as well as upright.

Years ago when I was looking for endorsements it was between 3 manufacturers. Markbass had just come out and Marco brougt all of his stuff to te Blue Note in Milan for me to try. I liked the amp for electric but not upright. Another was AI. I liked it for upright but not electric. I then tried the EA Micro. It sounded really good on electric and upright. So I went with EA and helped out with the Doubler.
 
I really liked the ABox II for electric as well as upright.

Years ago when I was looking for endorsements it was between 3 manufacturers. Markbass had just come out and Marco brougt all of his stuff to te Blue Note in Milan for me to try. I liked the amp for electric but not upright. Another was AI. I liked it for upright but not electric. I then tried the EA Micro. It sounded really good on electric and upright. So I went with EA and helped out with the Doubler.

Mike, perhaps you could share your link to your Abox II write-up.

I'm also looking forward to Chris Fitzgerald's upcoming review of the Abox II.

PS. If you see this Chris, please comment on the Abox for BG also, although I don't actually know if you play slab.
 
Mike, perhaps you could share your link to your Abox II write-up.

Rick here's Mikes write up I just moved it to this thread, it's in the Acoustic Box II thread

I'm also looking forward to Chris Fitzgerald's upcoming review of the Abox II.

PS. If you see this Chris, please comment on the Abox for BG also, although I don't actually know if you play slab.


"Review of A Box II
Thanks to Rick for setting this up.
Ok--I'll start with the good news. It's very good news. The Abox II gives me the best sound from my piezos that I've ever gotten. I tried it combining the mic which sounds great but I don't use a mic. I've abandoned trying to combine a mic. Even ones with great feedback rejection pick up way to much drums for my taste. So my review is based on using two Yamahiko pickups.Each Yamahiko is going into a separate channel. All going through a powered MAS18.
In comparing the basic sound with two other amps I've used, the EA Doubler and the AI Clarus---the Abox definitely wins. By a lot. I prefer the sound to the Grace Felix. It has a tube-like warmth by comparison, but not at all bloated. Note envelope is right on the money. The two Yamahikos combined is my favorite and the Abox is my fav with the two.

Other plusses
Midrange eq is very good as well as highs.All semi-parametric. (not parametric--no Q control). I was easily able to dial out offensive mid frequencies and the semi-p made it a breeze

Phase switch--does what it should

Compressor--ok to good

Overall gain--ok---a bit more would be good---not at all enough through the 1/4 out but the xlr is ok. That being said, the class D module in the 18 ( Icepower 700) does not have the most sensitive input. Right now there are about 30 guys using the Felix through powered 18's. The Felix has more overall gain. The Abox works, but a bit more gain would be good. I had to run the channel that uses the Yamahiko at the higher gain at about 2 o'clock with the master cranked. Since piezos have crazy dynamic range, I worry about whacking the E string and having too-much-gain fartout. To get top volume I'm at the edge of the gain structure.That being said, I was going for max volume on the 18 before fartout.In practice I'd likely not go nearly that loud with a single 18.The powered MAS18 is a worst case scenario, though. The 18 is pretty low efficiency and the 700 is not too sensative. But the Felix wrks fine with enough gain. I'd feel more at ease with a bit more.

OK--criticisms
This was not designed as a bass preamp, so some of the eq points could be improved

HPF---good but only goes to 40hz. I'd prefer 30 for bass. Also--what is the slope? I suspect not 24db/octave. Should be 24db. This is really helpful for bassists to cut out piezo subharmonics and only subharmonics. For bass it would be better to have a HPF on both channels. With a mic it's nice to have the ability to cut at a higher frequency, but for piezos (the big culprit on bass for subsonics) fixed at 30hz is fine. As a matter of fact--a 30 hz 24db/octave HPF with no controls would be fine. I would offer the ability to go higher on the mic channel. For bass you definitely need to have HPF on both channels--fixed on one is fine.

phase switch--one area where the Doubler wins (this feature was my suggestion to EA) is that the phase is variable from 0 to 180 degrees out of phase. This is very useful in combining two pickups or a mic. The chances that 0 or 180 degrees out of phase will yield the best sound in combining is very slim. To be able to vary the phase is very useful.

Notch filter--works well but the Q is too wide. Takes out the nasty frequencies, but too much of the adjacent frequencies

Effects---fun but bassists will never (Maybe not never) use them. Extra dough spent on features not needed for bassists.

Bass eq--I really like the semi parametric feature. I had to run it at about the 3:30 o'clock position---likely around 10 db boost. Not really a criticism--the Clarus needs the bass cranked about the same.

As it stands, I'd seriously consider getting one. The ability to have 3 places to tame mids is really nice. If these guys did one dedicated for bass---they would sell a ton. Getting the basic sound and envelope is the hardest part IMO. They nailed that. Now if it were more bass-oriented-----WOW. But--as it stands, it's already ahead of its competition. The fact that the low eq is semi-parametric puts it ahead of the Felix. And it sounds better!

BTW---while I don't use a mic live, the mic pre sounds great. With the Chuck Israels mic---amazing sound.

p.s. if the manufacturer wanted any assistance in designing a bass-specific pre I'd be happy to offer any suggestions

BTWWW---it sounds really nice with electric bass, too. Better than the AI or Felix. As good as the Doubler
 
I like the Radial Bigshot I/O. Simple and passive (with the option to power up some LED indicator lights). There is a provision to bleed off gain from the hotter signal but retain the highs - very useful. (I finally splurged on an buffer preamp with a volume control for the upright, so I'll probably do my gain matching there and leave the trim switched out on the floor unit.)
I also have the BassBone v1. Nice if you need a bit of tone shaping, an effects loop and not least of all a good built-in DI. I didn't really take to the EQ. I prefer to have the sound I want all ready to go right from the instrument so I have an HPF-Pre strapped to the tailpiece on my upright.
 
What about using a preamp for electric into the Felix? Like the Tonehammer or Sansamp? I have a Radial Bigshot, but I like sending separate lines for electric and upright to FOH. I guess I could run my Tonehammer (slab) and my BiX (upright) through my Bigshot to my amp (Magellan 800, which I love for both upright and slab), and send lines from each of their XLR outs to FOH.
 
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What about using a preamp for electric into the Felix? Like the Tonehammer or Sansamp? I have a Radial Bigshot, but I like sending separate lines for electric and upright to FOH. I guess I could run my Tonehammer (slab) and my BiX (upright) through my Bigshot to my amp (Magellan 800, which I love for both upright and slab), and send lines from each of their XLR outs to FOH.

Why not bypass the Bigshot and run the BiX into the Aux In on the Magellan? You can then use the preamp on the Magellan for electric and the BiX only for DB. I corresponded with Jeff (Genzler) about the Aux In on the amp and apparently it sums directly to the power amp, leaving the rest of the I/Os available to be used only for whatever's plugged into the input on the front of the amp.
 
Just my take, but some of these "solutions" seems overly complicated to me. My current solution is to just live with the sound of a Lakland 55-94 into the Grace as I'm not
really that discriminating about the electric bass sound of the Grace. My option is to run a Headway EDB-2 and the 3Leaf Audio Enabler together
into an AB switch that feeds my Monique M700. I'm always feeding the whatever preamp I use into a power amplifier, as preamping a preamp seems
redundant to me. As to the Acoustic Box II, while I'm sure it's a great box, I had problems with a pre amp that was made outside the use having
component failures. Although the company worked very hard to rectify the issues, after exchanging 4 different units, I threw in the towel.
 
I only mentioned putting a preamp between your electric and the Grace because you said you didn't like the way your bass sounded in the Grace on its own!

Why not bypass the Bigshot and run the BiX into the Aux In on the Magellan? You can then use the preamp on the Magellan for electric and the BiX only for DB. I corresponded with Jeff (Genzler) about the Aux In on the amp and apparently it sums directly to the power amp, leaving the rest of the I/Os available to be used only for whatever's plugged into the input on the front of the amp.

I've done that, and it works pretty well, though the level is significantly lower than the rest.
 
Personally, I think the Felix is the best electric bass preamp I've ever had. I use it almost exclusively in the studio over my Manley Tube DI, Radial, SansAmp, and other preamp boxes. It is pristine, but it sounds to me like a studio console preamp, which is what I'd usually plug the Manley or Radial into. Probably because that's what it is.

I'm not much of one for adding a lot of color to my electric bass, but I do find the Felix to be a warmer sound than the AI Clarus/Focus/Flex variants that I ran for a few years. I really did like those - especially for upright, but the Felix is the best of both world, IMO.
 
Personally, I think the Felix is the best electric bass preamp I've ever had. I use it almost exclusively in the studio over my Manley Tube DI, Radial, SansAmp, and other preamp boxes. It is pristine, but it sounds to me like a studio console preamp, which is what I'd usually plug the Manley or Radial into. Probably because that's what it is.

I'm not much of one for adding a lot of color to my electric bass, but I do find the Felix to be a warmer sound than the AI Clarus/Focus/Flex variants that I ran for a few years. I really did like those - especially for upright, but the Felix is the best of both world, IMO.

Agreed, I get a crystal clear sound with the Grace with a lot of detail and warmth. There is a bit of a difference between the voicing of the Grace and say a 3Leaf Audio Enabler. Unfortunately, most folks haven't ever heard the Enabler because, it's no longer avalible.
So it's a trade off of between the features of the Felix, i.e. mute, boost, double DI, et. al. and the Enabler's sound. My choice was to use the Enabler on EB gigs and the Grace on doubling gigs. Ultimately it's nice to have those options.
 
The less stuff in the signal chain, the better, IMO. For 99% of the gigs I do that means bringing an Aguilar AG700, MAS 18, an upright, electric, or both.

If I’m running through a PA, it’s a different setup, but if I’m powering the room from the stage, I plug one in, play, hit mute, switch instruments, and then start playing again. The input gain and EQ are all at noon for both instruments. The only change is that I roll off the low end a bit depending on the room with the upright. It’s easy, reliable, and I don’t feel like I need to compromise anything as far as time.
 
I have jumped into playing electric lately and I have been surprised at how great my Acoustic Image Ten2 2-channel head sounds with BG. I just plug a p bass or jazz right in and it sounds like an electric.

i also have the radial JDV 2-channel box which works pretty well. i might combine them to double my double so i can double thus making me a doubling doubler ;)