Downgrading from High-End Boutique Basses... Insanity?

[Muziekschuur]

Warwick Hellborg bass with true temperament fretting..... To die for...

 

[Honch]

A great discussion!!! However...

I used to be a professional photographer and there are many similarities between these two universes.

Amateur photographers (those who enjoy the trade w/o getting paid on a consistent basis) would come up and ask me what camera I was using, what lens I was using, what flash I had in my bag. Generally, I'd use a fixed lens and amateurs would ask me about the zoom lenses I had or the pixel count. I used flashes outdoors (which struck some as odd), I'd have a bag of batteries rather than a bag of lenses, I didn't have the latest model camera body.

Professionals (those who supported themselves with the trade) would ask where I was when I took photos, what it felt like. When talking gear, professionals usually only asked what kind of tripod I preferred (if I captured something on a monopod or a tripod, etc.). Professionals knew that the magic happened in the eyepiece, not in the equipment, and that a 50mm lens could create masterpieces in the right hands.

I liken the same to bass "playing". I don't think everyone is a bass "player". Perhaps there are different roles in the bass community: collectors, spenders, traders, amateurs, and professionals (likely even crossovers or ones I've not considered or mentioned). Many people enjoy collecting bass stuff - and that's good! Collectors may not play something as much as an amateur or professional, but owning it is part of the magic. (I imagine the cars in Jay Leno's garage, the ones with less than 1000 miles on them). Spenders turn things around fast, finding the newest and best iteration as necessary to their setup. Both of these roles are great for amateurs and professionals! Collectors with big bucks help keep the industry solvent and provide reason for manufacturers to create really exciting things. Spenders reward innovation! And amateurs and professionals reap the benefits by seeing botique pickups at a reasonable price and knockoffs that allow for 75-90% of the benefit of the real thing.

But beyond a certain point, the sound comes from the player, not the equipment. Give a $100 bass to a professional, let her/him rock it, and others will want that $100 bass. I have a friend who brags about his 8x10 cab all day long, explaining how heavy each magnet (in ounces) and how it'll shake the panties off of his next prey. But in reality, he doesn't play the bass that much, in fact he picks up my bass plugged into a 1x12 and has very little to say as he enjoys it. He is a collector. And being a collector makes him happy. He has something to talk about with his bass buddies, can use the first 5 frets, and waxes poetic about how deep he can sink his B string into this or that.

He and I are different. I practice an hour a day. I practice reading charts, tabs, notes, classical, country, hymns, contemporary, ear playing, boring riffs, hand strength and stamina exercises, finger twisters, reducing buzz, cleaning up my technique, and enjoy drinking 5 beers with a buddy and working over his ABG with round-wounds on his porch while he plays guitar and makes up lyrics. Its the doing, the playing, the mastry of a difficult skill that drives me.

However --> I'm happy that there are spenders, collectors, and players in the bass community. Without all of these roles, we wouldn't have a 1x12 that'll fill a 300 person theater. We would't know about the minute benefits and drawbacks of bolt-on vs neck-thru. I wouldn't have heard about cobalt flats or nickel half-rounds. Or how dead spots move around and can be shifted by a bit of weight on the neck. It takes spenders to sift through the hundreds of bass strings available. It takes collectors willing to look at a wall of +$5000 instruments. It takes amateurs who want to learn. It takes professionals who make me dream.

I will always only own one bass. If I can't do it on that bass, likely it isn't the bass that's the problem. I like the work, the effort, the mastry. But as Newton noted: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." The professionals, amateurs, collectors and spenders have gotten us this far, and we need all of us to keep it going.

Kevin

P.S. to answer the OP - I've not downgraded in search of "better" or "more," I've adapted my playing style to find the sound I need.

They're called Anoraks, in british slang, those kind of people

 

[Honch]

Some day I will end up in just owning one Squier and one Dingwall.
Just to annoy and rile up some people. If someone complains about one of them, I'll bring the other one next time. However, as I still have a very soft spot for headless Steinbergers and graphite...I'll have to chew on that for a while.

 

[Jason Hollar]

I went through a Zon, Modulus, & Pedulla phase - very beautiful basses, but never felt comfortable on any of them.

Ended up with a relatively inexpensive Yamaha TRB1005 and have over 500 gigs on it so far.

Just pulled the trigger on a newer USA Fender P - looking forward to putting some serious miles on this one as well.

 

[Bass Viking]

I even had our floors done with wenge and bulbinga because I had a major thing for warwicks back in the days

Cool! Some floors creak, yours probably growled.

Years ago I remember seeing a G & L (forget if it was a bass or guitar) that was made out of floorboards from the Grand Ole Opry.

 

[Jackie Clark]

Boutique basses don't always mean better when it comes to tone...it's still the player that creates the sound and not the instrument.Like I heard someone say,"if you put a $4000 bass on a stand next to a $400 bass on a stand,they both sound the same!" As always it ain't the oven but,the chef!

 

[ThePresident777]

I know a guy who has $65K and $80K DBs and he gigs with them all the time. I didn't ask him how much he spent on his bow, but I have played a $15K bow and it was sweet.

Obviously, he doesn't know about Sire. hehehehehehe

 

[addicted]

After playing a number of basses over the last few years, i recently decided I am sticking with stuff Leo had a hand in designing, Fender, Musician or G&L. That's pretty much what I'm going with. I no longer feel the need for anything real hi buck.

But that's me!

I am with you except for the G&L. It's easier to find replacement parts or 3rd party parts for Fender & MM. That's why I like these basses.

I would still love to have a mid-end singlecut with me as my flagship bass though. Ibanez SRSC805 for example.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Not in the context of the thread. The thread is not whether low end or high end basses sound better or worse.

I went through a Zon, Modulus, & Pedulla phase - very beautiful basses, but never felt comfortable on any of them.

Ended up with a relatively inexpensive Yamaha TRB1005 and have over 500 gigs on it so far.

Just pulled the trigger on a newer USA Fender P - looking forward to putting some serious miles on this one as well.

It's really tough to go wrong with a Yamaha. They make great instruments.

 

[Brother Goose]

I bought a new Ken Smith 2016 elite 5 string this year, and it was very,very nice...But I just couldn't get used to the tapered strings & wasn't totally happy with how it sat in the house mix. However, I ended up trading a few basses & eventually settled on my Bossa ob-5. The Bossa was used & several thousand dollars cheaper than the Smith, but the Bossa feels, plays, & even sounds better than the Smith (to me) (& I'm not knocking Smith at all, they are amazing in many aspects)... so I can totally see where you are coming from. More $ for a bass doesn't always equate to being "better"
Congrats on finding what u like!

Great example. Bossa basses are punch monsters!

 

[Brother Goose]

I've owned Alembic, Modulus, and Ken Smith basses in the past. (Only one at a time)

Overjoyed w my second hand Warmoth Geckos. Modern design and customizable. I don't have to worry about resale value b/c I would never sell them knowing how little I'd get in return.

If something plays well and has a good sound it is a good bass.
(I would like an older BT era Smith if I won the lotto, however)

 

[ansonsti]

I am certainly of the mind that at a certain point you're just paying for craftsmanship. With the level of precision and consistency that is readily available on the market today, one must search for intangibles. I've been in a winding up phase with my gear since I finished University. I'd like to think I'm nearing the plateau but things keep picking up.

Last Fall I upgraded from my 10 plus year boo of a Schecter 5-String Stilleto and fell for what has become the spiritual successor to that bass. The NS Design CR-5 Radius. With a price point around 3k and a serial number #00099 it rides the line between boutique and mass produced. Like, it was certainly made in a factory but you don't see many of them. Playability wise, it is a crystal ball. All the way up to the 24th fret she sings. If I'm playing with acoustic guitars and take a lead, look out. It will blow the doors off the place. In hand with my rapidly developing MarkBass rig she is proper lethal. But I digress.

The fact is that when it comes to pure playability she is still subject to physical constraints. I picked up a Squire Jaguar 4 string at open mic tonight and my one five country hits were noticeably easier to hit on the smaller neck, not dodging the extra string. And I can accept this. But the moment I'd go for that upper register or try to play in another position I would miss my Steinberger.

Everything is a trade off. You get one thing, you're goIng to sacrifice something else. Like when I go to play lead, the band has to fall back and cover the chunk until I can return. The same goes for the physical nature of the instrument.

But, with the Steinberger certain design elements transcend playability and make the CR-5 radius a work horse. With no headstock I never have to worry about knocking my tuning pegs in close quarters. The neck is carbon fiber, but it has a maple veneer and maple fretboard for feel and tone. And that characteristic NS concave that fits yer belly, as seen on many Spector basses, is a nice perk.

So what I've done is come in at a price point just north of any Fender, or what you would find in guitar center, without having to wait 6 months for a luthier to craft my custom specs. With that extra dollar I have acquired some unique features. And I am aware of the limitations of my instrument, but can lean into its strong points.

I still desire more, but my last bass lasted me for north of a decade and I foresee this one lasting at least half that. I'm lower middle class, and I know how to play. I make a bit at gigs, and have found a real work horse....although I do feel tempted to get into the 6 string market.....perhaps another Schecter.....

 

[Norwegian Bass]

I play Fender Ps and Sadowsky Js, and they are both essential to me. And equal. I don't know if Sadowsky is "boutique", they're more like refined, "with turbo" Fenders. Mine don't have eye candy tops or what not; they're straight up ash and maple; nice pieces of ash and maple though. Anyway, I like the understated, simple elegance vibe when picking instruments; like my Martin is a style 28. Some like the bling of style 42 or style 45, but I think they look slightly gaudy. I love the look of classical Spanish guitars; timeless beauty.

 

[mambo4]

What about the sheer joy I feel playing and hearing the instruments of my choosing, whether in a live mix or in a recorded one? I don't see that in your equation anywhere. And yes, to me that is REAL value.

Oh I agree, which is why my gear has not paid for itself.
If I were seriously pursuing music as a source of income, my approach would be different.

 

[BuffaloBob4343]

Oh I agree, which is why my gear has not paid for itself.
If I were seriously pursuing music as a source of income, my approach would be different.

It would probably be hard to totally get rid of the joy part, even if you are pursuing music for income, but I get your meaning. I guess when you turn anything into a job, there is certainly a risk that the joy will get sucked out of it.

 

[TheMartianBassist]

Its not insane at all. It's tough for me to justify paying 6k for a bass, even as a session player. Let's add to the fact that artists endorsing these instruments rarely pay that price either. They can't afford too honestly. Most of the guys buying super expensive basses at cost are hobbyists with big budgets.

My AVRI is close to as well made as my more boutique Jazz. More importantly, it has the tone I want.

Which AVRI did you get?

 

[TheMartianBassist]

In my 30 year pursuit for the perfect bass I went all the way up to the point of buying a 60's Fender and a brand new custom Fodera.

I am done with my pursuit, you can't hunt for something that is just not there.

There is just no such a thing as the perfect bass. There is always something wrong with each and every single one of them.

I could not stand the Fodera and the 60's Fender for being not perfect (for me I should add), and I sold them, they had to go.

Currently happy with my '79 Sabre, '85 BB1000S and 2016 EuroLX.

Great comment, man.
Resonating with me.

 

[pappabass]

well, when I found out my High-End Boutique Bass did not self tune, I sold it,,, (A little humor here, don't want gear snobs attacking me!)

 

[TheMartianBassist]

Long story short, no, it is not insanity. It is asymmetric or nonlinear customer satisfaction. Think of the following two options:

1. you find a bill of $100 on the parking lot, or
2. you lose a $100 bill you had on your pocket

Which of the two emotions that the above described situations brought up feels "stronger" or "bigger" to you?

So, as the monetary values are the same in both instances, should not the emotion feel about the same in "size" also? It does not, and hence what we now understand is that the sense of "value" has little to do with "price". One guy who likes watches can like his cheap divers Seiko as much - or more - than he does his megadollar Rolex.

The psychology of appreciation does not follow pricing.

 

[TheMartianBassist]

I love my mid-level Ibanez basses. Sometimes I get an itch to try something newer and "better", and I've played much higher end basses in stores, but they just don't do it for me. Maybe they sound slightly better, but I like dirt, and any tiny detail would be lost from the dirt I use. And the tiny improvement I tone is not worth quadrupling the price of my bass! And those were only $2K, I couldn't justify some of the higher priced ones.

Don't do it. I just spent a year and a half deviating from my trusted Ibanez SR's deep into boutique land just to find myself right back where I started.
Love the playability, weight, and slim necks of the SR and didn't get that with anything else.