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Downtuning Mega-Thread

#21
I can't help you for getting below B, but just getting there was a journey for me.

I am a low-end player at heart, I almost never used the G string, I felt the D string fretted up higher gave me better tone and sustain, and I always felt constrained that I couldn't get low enough, so I was a natural for switching to BEAD.

I ended up doing a full setup for it, which really helped. Bought my own nut files and string height gauges (those things are fantastic). All I did was file down an existing nut, so not that hard to do.

But then I had a big problem, I do church music, and the B string tone wasn't a good fit for that genre, I was a bit horrified at how it sounded at first, it really stood out as the string that didn't belong. Enough that I was considering going back to EADG.

Eventually I added a high-pass filter (~70HZ), then ran that through mild compression, and now all the strings are balanced, punchy, and tight, with lots of sustain when I need it.

And even with the fundamental removed the low B sounds great, harmonics are a wonderful thing.
 
#22
My band tunes CFBbEb, so 2 steps down. I prefer 4 strings, so I have two that I use for this. One is a Spector Euro model that is the 35" scale length option. It is strung with La Bella Drop Tune strings (they are designed to hold tension at lower tunings without as big a gauge as a 5 string set - 54-111). The scale length and string combo works out great. My second bass is a Dingwall NG2. The fanned frets means the scale length on the "E" string (or "C" in my case) is 36.25". It also is fantastic for the lower tunings. I use a custom set of Kalium strings in gauges suggested by Dingwall. In my experience, you can use a 34" scale bass no problem, but I think the extra scale length can make a big difference at 2 steps down. When I was in a band that was in D, I found a little heavier string set than standard on a 34" scale was all I needed.

I don't think the amplification is that big a deal. If you like Ampeg or GK or whatever, no reason to necessarily change. I went to playing with a much dirtier/distorted sound in this band, so I did switch. However, that was more to fit the music than any type of performance issue. Honestly, I've played the above basses through 10's, 12's and 15's. All can handle it no problem.
 
#24
socialleper said:
Are those round wound or flats?
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Round wound stainless steel. I have a set on my Gibson $ bass. They sound good, maybe not the zingyest for steels but good growl. Tension is great for me in D standard but a bit loose in drop C for me. The steel is maybe a bit grabby and makes faster playing more difficult. Dunlop heavy core are probably worth checking out. Those are NPS. I have a Peavey Millenium strung with extra heavy Ken Smith Burners as well and those work out well on the 35" scale. The silk on the .115 ends right at the nut on those. For some reason Ken Smith makes the winding length 38" on every string except the .115 which is 36.5" but I make it work even if I have to scrape off some silk with a razor.
 
#26
One of my old basses (now sadly long gone to that jam session in the sky) was an Aria SB that I tuned CGDA (yes, that's the C and G down from E and A, the D staying right where it is and the G tuned up a step to A). This was based on guitarist Robert Fripp's "New Standard Tuning" (it's in Wiki, so JFGI). Perhaps he was the original "down tuner" way back in the early 80's?

I find that some instruments respond better to alternate/down tunings that others. The above mentioned Aria sounded MASSIVE in that tuning, or even drop D, and solid in standard tuning. But my current Yamaha (BBN4, which in wood and pickups, is essentially a Jazz bass, tonally) doesn't like to go below drop D (my standard tuning for playing that axe is DADG now)- dropping to C or anything lower on that axe sounds thin, with all the harmonics seeming to overpower the very weak fundamental note. No amount of bottom end EQ/boost can bring that back either (and I've tried!).

I tend to think that (and this may be VERY obvious to most players) that each instrument not only has a certain tonal quality, but a "speaking voice" as it were, and may take well or not so well to whatever tuning thrown at it.
 
#27
I have a mix of four, five, and six string basses, long and short scale, and I down tune them all. In fact I essentially use Fripp's NST although it is also known as the cello tuning for four strings basses. Fripp did not invent the idea although he has certainly done his best to popularize it. The late Red Mitchell was the first modern (double) bassist to adopt it back in 1966 and he has a cadre of followers on DB and BG. Many of the very early DBs were tuned in fifths with three strings: GDA. Some speculate that people were waiting for the technology of the day to catch up to the task of making a suitable C string when the French said "screw it with the waiting!" and moved to the EADG fourths tuning which took over the world of the DB. Some even speculate that the name double bass comes from the intention to double the cello tuning one octave down.

So my basses are tuned CGDA((E)B) as appropriate to their string count. Yes, you have to file nuts if your bass did not come from the factory with the larger strings although when you tune in fifths the pitches rise fast enough that you generally only have to file the bottom string slot, or maybe the bottom two. I've not had much trouble with bridges, of course the five string bridge was designed to go down to B so tuning it to C is actually an uptuning. My six is a Squier VI which comes from the factory with a bridge that is just barely adequate to intonate with its intended too skinny E string. A Staytrem bridge was necessary on that one to get enough range to intonate a C string. Since I not only down tune but also fifths tune there is really no option but to buy custom string sets but that is relatively cheap and painless these days. In an ironic twist on the string problem the early double basses had with the low C string, Fripp initially intended for NST to be an all fifths tuning but he couldn't find a reliable high B string back in the day and even an A string broke more often than he liked so NST uses a high G. If you tune a short scale six an octave down as I do then the top B string is not an issue and the pure NST vision can be realized.

I'm moving to short scale exclusively because that just works nice with a fifths tuning. I admire Red Mitchell and the other fifths tuned double bassists but since I have the option as a bass guitarist I am going to take advantage of the shorter reaches that short scales offer. My second short scale is an Ibanez SRC6 which I am currently converting to an SRC5 by removing one string. I don't really need a second six string and I can't really find a five string short scale at the quality/price level of an SRC6 so I snatched a used one from the local Guitar Center to convert. I just got it up and running as a fiver last night, it will still need some tweaks to optimize it but I like it! My long scale basses both have Hipshot tuners on the C string that allow them to drop as low as A if need be. I don't know if I will get away with that on the short scales but I will at least try it on the SRC5.

My only gig is a church band and I don't see any issue with using a low tuning there. The bassists on the recordings we practice to often seem to be using fivers. Anything down to D gets used a lot, I use the notes below that much more sparingly. We only have one song where I will drop the C to a B to get the low fifth for an E. You cannot raise your string tension by raising the action at the bridge. Raising the action will give you less fret buzz if you are using very light strings for the pitches you are tuned to. If you down tune your bass by selecting string gauges that give you the same string tensions at the new pitch as you had at the old then you will in theory not have to change your setup at all. The same action height and same truss rod setting should work just fine because all the tensions are the same. If you just use whatever strings you can easily find then of course you will have to adjust the action and the truss rod, you changed the tensions!
 
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#28
monsterthompson said:
Currently meditating on converting my EBMM StingRay to a BEAD, but I'm hesitant, as I'll likely want to file the nut, but replacement ones are hard to find (compensated nut). Any thoughts? My current idea is to get a new nut (non compensated) and file it, while retaining the original. Need to do a search on using compensated and non-compensated nuts on the same bass. Not sure if that creates intonation issues.
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If you're good at taking the nut off and replacing it, that would be the ideal choice. I wouldn't try to do anything like that, I would be sure to butcher it. I've converted 3 basses to BEAD. All were different. One I had to drill out the bridge string hole for the B string. I learned the hard way that the string has to twist freely in the bridge or the string will get twisted. I've found the B has to be filed the most, E a little less and sometimes that's it or as you go towards the D, each string is less that needs to be filed. I've converted them back to EADG with the filed nut with no problem. Intonation is an easy fix either way. Then I Got a 5 String ! Go figure.
 
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#30
Maxfenderbass said:
I play 2 Jazzes and a PJ in my band, all 4 strings. We play in Eb Standard, Drop D, Drop C# and Drop C. It just makes everyone's life easier if you are playing similar parts to the guitarist. IE. Guitarist gets lost(not uncommon) looks over at you, then figures it out.
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Agreed. Yes, I could do all the math in my head, or try to flex my way through using a BEADG 5 string for D or C tunings, but it is a lot of work, and it is so much easier to be able to mirror the other players around you if there is a problem. I already run into trouble because I use a standard B tuning while my guitarists are using a drop B tuning (BADG..etc) so technically I have an E and they don't. When they watch me, or when I'm teaching them a song, it can be confusing.

The kick in the head is that guitar players really don't understand how hard tuning a bass lower is. A guitar without a tremolo can tune down pretty easily without changing strings. On a bass you have to reconfigure everything. Standard E tuning is anemic to my ears, but man I wish I could use that again. It is so much easier.
 
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#31
I play only tuned to drop D. I do it for 2 reasons--even though it creates a few difficulties....

1) My original band uses the open D sound often

2) I play bass solos that are patterned after my approach to solo saxophone (often using relative minors)---and when tuned to drop D my pentatonic scales are more compact on the fretboard.
 
#32
I'm so glad this thread exists. I joined a band a month or two ago that tunes to C# or drops the low C# to B for their songs. I tried about 3 different sets of strings, I HATED how floppy they were. What I ended up doing is custom ordering a set of strings from StringJoy (.145/.105/.075/.055) and those have worked best for my Rick. I had the file the nut a bit but now my action is as low or maybe lower than even my Jazz bass that's in standard. The tension still isn't really high enough for me, but it's the closest I've gotten to what I want. The annoying part is that we are a metal band and so I do a lot of triplets on the lower strings to match the guitarist's riffs and the tension is lower so I end up getting that clacky,clangy sound on my Rick. Still, it's better than trying to make do with a .115 or even a 5 string .130. And honestly that's a minor complaint.
 
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#33
LCAirPasta said:
I'm so glad this thread exists. I joined a band a month or two ago that tunes to C# or drops the low C# to B for their songs. I tried about 3 different sets of strings, I HATED how floppy they were. What I ended up doing is custom ordering a set of strings from StringJoy (.145/.105/.075/.055) and those have worked best for my Rick. I had the file the nut a bit but now my action is as low or maybe lower than even my Jazz bass that's in standard. The tension still isn't really high enough for me, but it's the closest I've gotten to what I want. The annoying part is that we are a metal band and so I do a lot of triplets on the lower strings to match the guitarist's riffs and the tension is lower so I end up getting that clacky,clangy sound on my Rick. Still, it's better than trying to make do with a .115 or even a 5 string .130. And honestly that's a minor complaint.
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That is one thick B string. Does it fit in the bridge saddle ok?
 
#36
basscapes said:
One of my old basses (now sadly long gone to that jam session in the sky) was an Aria SB that I tuned CGDA (yes, that's the C and G down from E and A, the D staying right where it is and the G tuned up a step to A). This was based on guitarist Robert Fripp's "New Standard Tuning" (it's in Wiki, so JFGI). Perhaps he was the original "down tuner" way back in the early 80's?

I find that some instruments respond better to alternate/down tunings that others. The above mentioned Aria sounded MASSIVE in that tuning, or even drop D, and solid in standard tuning. But my current Yamaha (BBN4, which in wood and pickups, is essentially a Jazz bass, tonally) doesn't like to go below drop D (my standard tuning for playing that axe is DADG now)- dropping to C or anything lower on that axe sounds thin, with all the harmonics seeming to overpower the very weak fundamental note. No amount of bottom end EQ/boost can bring that back either (and I've tried!).

I tend to think that (and this may be VERY obvious to most players) that each instrument not only has a certain tonal quality, but a "speaking voice" as it were, and may take well or not so well to whatever tuning thrown at it.
Click to expand...
Black Sabbath were tuning down to C# ten years before that.

But otherwise, I agree. My Peavey sounds way better in BEAD than it ever sounded in EADG.

socialleper said:
Agreed. Yes, I could do all the math in my head, or try to flex my way through using a BEADG 5 string for D or C tunings, but it is a lot of work, and it is so much easier to be able to mirror the other players around you if there is a problem. I already run into trouble because I use a standard B tuning while my guitarists are using a drop B tuning (BADG..etc) so technically I have an E and they don't. When they watch me, or when I'm teaching them a song, it can be confusing.

The kick in the head is that guitar players really don't understand how hard tuning a bass lower is. A guitar without a tremolo can tune down pretty easily without changing strings. On a bass you have to reconfigure everything. Standard E tuning is anemic to my ears, but man I wish I could use that again. It is so much easier.
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For Catapult's first album, I was in BEAD tuning (still am), one guitarist was in drop G#, the other guitarist was in 7 string standard, and the keyboard player/third guitarist was in E standard. On the one hand this was confusing, but on the other hand, it got us into the habit of referring to notes on our downtuned instruments by their actual names.

LCAirPasta said:
I'm so glad this thread exists. I joined a band a month or two ago that tunes to C# or drops the low C# to B for their songs. I tried about 3 different sets of strings, I HATED how floppy they were. What I ended up doing is custom ordering a set of strings from StringJoy (.145/.105/.075/.055) and those have worked best for my Rick. I had the file the nut a bit but now my action is as low or maybe lower than even my Jazz bass that's in standard. The tension still isn't really high enough for me, but it's the closest I've gotten to what I want. The annoying part is that we are a metal band and so I do a lot of triplets on the lower strings to match the guitarist's riffs and the tension is lower so I end up getting that clacky,clangy sound on my Rick. Still, it's better than trying to make do with a .115 or even a 5 string .130. And honestly that's a minor complaint.
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The clacky clangy sound is one of the things I love about Rickenbackers.

I use a 130 B and 100 E. On my EADG tuned Rickenbacker I use a 100 E as well, as I've always liked the slightly lower tension.
 
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#39
SturmUndDrang said:
Let's try to rev up this thread to make it mega worthy. How about some musical examples of drop tuned songs. Are there certain phrases or tunes that scream out , this was definitely played in drop D or C or what have you?
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I thought this topic would garner more conversation. SO many bass players ask about it, and it is tricky. Whatever.

As far as songs, honestly, if I looked at my music collection it would be harder to find stuff in E standard than anything lower. Lots of hard rock bands like Kiss and GNR used a Eb tuning. I think every death metal band on the planet starts at D and works down from there. The stoner and doom genres are all D to A. Black Sabbath started tuning to C or C# in the mid 70s, more out of necessity for Tony, but that shows this isn't some new fangled trend.
I could name literally thousands of songs by hundreds of bands that downtune. However, in typical TB Orthodoxy style, anything that isn't from the 60s or 70s, or vanilla, is generally ignored.
 
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#40
socialleper said:
I thought this topic would garner more conversation. SO many bass players ask about it, and it is tricky. Whatever.

As far as songs, honestly, if I looked at my music collection it would be harder to find stuff in E standard than anything lower. Lots of hard rock bands like Kiss and GNR used a Eb tuning. I think every death metal band on the planet starts at D and works down from there. The stoner and doom genres are all D to A. Black Sabbath started tuning to C or C# in the mid 70s, more out of necessity for Tony, but that shows this isn't some new fangled trend.
I could name literally thousands of songs by hundreds of bands that downtune. However, in typical TB Orthodoxy style, anything that isn't from the 60s or 70s, or vanilla, is generally ignored.
Click to expand...
Ok how about we get some going. I was trying to think of those that have just the lowest string down tuned instead of all strings tuned in fourths down together. It's not always obvious to tell the difference between dropped and standard. For example, is this just a dropped E string or are all the strings dropped?
 

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