Double Bass DPA mics

[coyote1]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the $35 Behringer CB100 gooseneck cardioid condenser, plus a pair of $18 cello mic clips from Corleson, would get you very good results for a total investment of less than $80.

Based on my experience with the Audix, I’m guessing that the performance of such mics - including the DPA4099 - is largely about the position of the mic. Under the strings south of the tailpiece, where the mic is pointed directly at the largest and most active area of the soundboard, will get you maximum signal-to-noise with the best possible sound available in that context**. So any decent small cardioid should be able to perform well there.

**Distance mic’ing would of course allow the sound to develop more, but is not useful for live performance amplification.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the $35 Behringer CB100 gooseneck cardioid condenser, plus a pair of $18 cello mic clips from Corleson, would get you very good results for a total investment of less than $80.

Based on my experience with the Audix, I’m guessing that the performance of such mics - including the DPA4099 - is largely about the position of the mic. Under the strings south of the tailpiece, where the mic is pointed directly at the largest and most active area of the soundboard, will get you maximum signal-to-noise with the best possible sound available in that context**. So any decent small cardioid should be able to perform well there.

**Distance mic’ing would of course allow the sound to develop more, but is not useful for live performance amplification.

Well IME yes and no,

I bought a Ovid TBone C100 (DPA clone) from Thomann and it worked good enough but broke within a year, plus the string clip kept popping off. So at least in my experience, there’s a reason they’re called clones. :<) Sometimes it’s more about an effective mounting setup than it is about the actual mic itself. Even DPA had to make the 4099 cable detachable and add a gooseneck extension so that it would work on a bigger group of basses. Just my take of course.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

… while the Remic Green has a more feed back resistant capsule and it’s a lower gain microphone by comparison. …

A lower gain does not matter for feedback resistance. You need to compensate it with a higher gain in the mic preamp to get to the same volume level.
But the noise floor of the mic also gets amplified that way, so generally a higher gain mic is preferable.

 

[Ric Vice]

A lower gain does not matter for feedback resistance. You need to compensate it with a higher gain in the mic preamp to get to the same volume level.
But the noise floor of the mic also gets amplified that way, so generally a higher gain mic is preferable.

Let me rephrase that, the Remic D5400 LB (Green) is like the Ehrlund EAP as the volume comes up very gradually. It can still get quite loud.IME this works very well inthe~a context of DB on a live stage with FOH sound and wedge monitors. The Remic D5400 (Red) is really “hot” by comparison. It will reach the feedback threshold quickly.

 

[Ben Rolston]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the $35 Behringer CB100 gooseneck cardioid condenser, plus a pair of $18 cello mic clips from Corleson, would get you very good results for a total investment of less than $80.

Based on my experience with the Audix, I’m guessing that the performance of such mics - including the DPA4099 - is largely about the position of the mic. Under the strings south of the tailpiece, where the mic is pointed directly at the largest and most active area of the soundboard, will get you maximum signal-to-noise with the best possible sound available in that context**. So any decent small cardioid should be able to perform well there.

**Distance mic’ing would of course allow the sound to develop more, but is not useful for live performance amplification.

I haven't had that experience. I feel like cheaper mics have less predictable freq responses making them harder to work with in a live situation.

 

[coyote1]

I haven't had that experience. I feel like cheaper mics have less predictable freq responses making them harder to work with in a live situation.

Which cheaper mics that have displayed those characteristics have you used in live situations? And did you have gear (such as graphic or parametric EQ) that is typically able to assist in such scenarios, but the unpredictability of the mic frequency response defeated even those tools?

 

[Ben Rolston]

And did you have gear (such as graphic or parametric EQ) that is typically able to assist in such scenarios, but the unpredictability of the mic frequency response defeated even those tools?

Yup, a Felix

An incomplete list of mics:
Troll, Shure SM58 and Beta 58, Line Audio CM4, Sennheiser 609, NoHype CRM-1, EV 635 and an older EV dynamic mic.
I think the DPA was more predictable than all of those -- doesn't mean it wasn't problematic sometimes but still.

 

[Ric Vice]

Which cheaper mics that have displayed those characteristics have you used in live situations? And did you have gear (such as graphic or parametric EQ) that is typically able to assist in such scenarios, but the unpredictability of the mic frequency response defeated even those tools?

I has the chance to directly compare a DPA 4099B (non Devote) and the Ovid TBone CC-100. In my experience, In every instance the DPA far outperformed the Ovid TBone. It sounded better, resisted feedback, and had better frequency response and the DPA mount was solid and flexible
while the Ovid mount constantly popped off the tailpiece and the connecting cable was noisy while the 4099 was silent. Just my take however.

 

[coyote1]

Yup, a Felix

An incomplete list of mics:
Troll, Shure SM58 and Beta 58, Line Audio CM4, Sennheiser 609, NoHype CRM-1, EV 635 and an older EV dynamic mic.
I think the DPA was more predictable than all of those -- doesn't mean it wasn't problematic sometimes but still.

None of the listed mics can get to the referenced position: under the strings between bridge and tailpiece, facing down at the vibrating top of the body of the bass.


While I do not doubt what you say - indeed, one would hope that a mic at 18x the price would sound better (and be higher quality) - it would be a fascinating comparison. Both in a double-blind listening, and on frequency analysis equipment.

I has the chance to directly compare a DPA 4099B (non Devote) and the Ovid TBone CC-100. In my experience, In every instance the DPA far outperformed the Ovid TBone. It sounded better, resisted feedback, and had better frequency response and the DPA mount was solid and flexible
while the Ovid mount constantly popped off the tailpiece and the connecting cable was noisy while the 4099 was silent. Just my take however.

 

[Ric Vice]

None of the listed mics can get to the referenced position: under the strings between bridge and tailpiece, facing down at the vibrating top of the body of the bass.

The Ovid TBone CC-100 could and unfortunately it didn’t improve the sound. All the Remic Microphones ( D5400,D5400 LB, D540, and the New Reshape) can be mounted under the fingerboard, in between the feet of the bridge, or under the tailpiece. They aren’t inexpensive nor are they ridiculously overpriced. They often come up used on the TB website and Reverb. Just my take of course. The Remic D5400LB (Green) has a different polar pattern from any Double Bass microphone I’ve experienced. It focuses on sweet spot right above the top around the bridge.

 

[LaFaro01]

I also went for the Remic and I still really like it... but it might be interesting to compare it to the new Neumann MCM System, which seems to be a quite interesting alternative to the DPA and also the Remic's...

Miniature Clip Mic System MCM

Elevates electret principle to Neumann sound standards✔️ Durability increases ROI up to tenfold✔️ A single capsule for loud and soft instruments✔️ Works with key transmitter bodypacks✔️

www.neumann.com

Looking for some reviews of the Neumann MCM114 (for example this one...)

I just decided to order this micro to compare to my Remic...

 

[crd]

Looking for some reviews of the Neumann MCM114 (for example this one...)

I just decided to order this micro to compare to my Remic...

Please let us know how it goes! I've been waiting for some feedback on the Neumann.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Feedback enters at spikes in the frequency response (of the whole loop, electrically, acoustically and mechanically at the same point in the loop). A few sharper dips won‘t matter.

It is the frequency response of the whole loop including mic position and direction, acoustically reflective surfaces, any amplifiers and the speaker and its position relativ to the mic.

For amplification (not considering any uneven frequency response of parts of it which are typically neglectable) only the product of all amplification and sensitivity matters. If the input signal is very weak, the high amplification also amplified noise that may have an influence too, but typically a played note has a much larger signal than any noise that gets amplified too.
Directionality has a large influence on the frequency response, so that‘s important.

 

[LaFaro01]

Looking for some reviews of the Neumann MCM114 (for example this one...)

I just decided to order this micro to compare to my Remic...

Because I was travelling over Christmas and unfortunately only got home late today, I still have to curb my curiosity a little, but I'm really curious to see how the Neumann MCM behaves/how it sounds. Today we've got a nice visit, so I will get the chance to check out the Neumann earliest tomorrow...P
But here 2 are little appetizers...



As said before... I'm really curious...

 

[LaFaro01]

So I've now started a first little test round with the Neumann..... and so far I'm quite taken with the little thing...
Unfortunately, the pictures turned out a bit dark, because at least at the beginning the flash in my mobile phone didn't seem to be in the mood...
Mounting is pretty easy and unlike the DPA, the mount allows you to rotate the mic in 45° increments. Adjusting the length and distance is no problem at all thanks to the flexible arm. Let's see how long the gooseneck remains ‘stable’...Otherwise, I really like the modularity of the MCM. It seems that you can replace all the main parts, but they are still very sturdily connected to each other.
Personally, I also like the fact that the connection/output stage (MCM 100) is not located directly on the gooseneck, but is connected via a long cable, similar to the Remic and unlike the DPA. As little weight as possible on the ‘vibrating system’ seems to make sense to me... Another difference to the DPA is the interchangeable capsule. At the moment there are only 2 (cardioid and omnidirectional), but who knows what's to come...
The position is now simply set to ‘blue’ and can certainly still be optimised.


First impressions of the sound: Not as ‘bassy’ as the Remic, but ‘bassy enough’ and at the same time very nice acoustic and ‘woody’. Without having a direct comparison with the DPA, it sounds a bit like a combination of the "bass-part" of the Remic and the "openness" of the DPA...
It's certainly not noisier than the Remic, but rather less so and doesn't react as ‘sensitively’ to background noise. I can understand that John Goldsby is apparently also quite taken with the Neumann MCM...
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/microphone-stage-for-upright-bass.1579004/page-3#post-26854752
I will test it further in the next few days, but the first impression is extremely positive and I can well imagine at the moment that it could replace the Remic... I'm looking forward to the comparison with the Schoeps and also with the Sandhill...
By the way... I am once again ‘thrilled’ by the variable input impedance of my Schult preamps...

Roger Schult - V2359j amp4ribbon microphone preamp with three integrated filters, impedance matching and +48 V phantom power

Roger Schult - V2359j amp4ribbon microphone preamp with three integrated filters, reduction of disturbing and accentuation of desired frequencies, impedance matching from 150 Ohm to 22 kOhm, bypass switch and +48 V phantom power, high pass, equalizer, api® 500

www.rogerschult.com

just deeply impressing, how you can ‘bend’ or adjust the sound of mics with it....

 

[crd]

So I've now started a first little test round with the Neumann..... and so far I'm quite taken with the little thing...
Unfortunately, the pictures turned out a bit dark, because at least at the beginning the flash in my mobile phone didn't seem to be in the mood...
Mounting is pretty easy and unlike the DPA, the mount allows you to rotate the mic in 45° increments. Adjusting the length and distance is no problem at all thanks to the flexible arm. Let's see how long the gooseneck remains ‘stable’...Otherwise, I really like the modularity of the MCM. It seems that you can replace all the main parts, but they are still very sturdily connected to each other.
Personally, I also like the fact that the connection/output stage (MCM 100) is not located directly on the gooseneck, but is connected via a long cable, similar to the Remic and unlike the DPA. As little weight as possible on the ‘vibrating system’ seems to make sense to me... Another difference to the DPA is the interchangeable capsule. At the moment there are only 2 (cardioid and omnidirectional), but who knows what's to come...
The position is now simply set to ‘blue’ and can certainly still be optimised.
View attachment 7110752 View attachment 7110753 View attachment 7110754 View attachment 7110755

First impressions of the sound: Not as ‘bassy’ as the Remic, but ‘bassy enough’ and at the same time very nice acoustic and ‘woody’. Without having a direct comparison with the DPA, it sounds a bit like a combination of the "bass-part" of the Remic and the "openness" of the DPA...
It's certainly not noisier than the Remic, but rather less so and doesn't react as ‘sensitively’ to background noise. I can understand that John Goldsby is apparently also quite taken with the Neumann MCM...
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/microphone-stage-for-upright-bass.1579004/page-3#post-26854752
I will test it further in the next few days, but the first impression is extremely positive and I can well imagine at the moment that it could replace the Remic... I'm looking forward to the comparison with the Schoeps and also with the Sandhill...
By the way... I am once again ‘thrilled’ by the variable input impedance of my Schult preamps...

Roger Schult - V2359j amp4ribbon microphone preamp with three integrated filters, impedance matching and +48 V phantom power

Roger Schult - V2359j amp4ribbon microphone preamp with three integrated filters, reduction of disturbing and accentuation of desired frequencies, impedance matching from 150 Ohm to 22 kOhm, bypass switch and +48 V phantom power, high pass, equalizer, api® 500

www.rogerschult.com

just deeply impressing, how you can ‘bend’ or adjust the sound of mics with it....

Thanks for the report!

Do you have access to a Schoeps? I would love a comparison. Any level matched audio files would also be appreciated also!!

 

[Ric Vice]

It should be noted here that I believe John is still using the Schoeps as his preferred microphone setup. Unfortunately, that’s @ a $2,000.00 investment.
Well worth it I might add, but out of most amateur, or even semiprofessional bassists price range. As one of the options for the Remic Reshape is a “Supercardoid” capsule that seems like the perfect option at a lower price point. Just my take however

 

[LaFaro01]

Thanks for the report!

Do you have access to a Schoeps? I would love a comparison. Any level matched audio files would also be appreciated also!!

Yes, I own a Schoeps CMC 1 with a MK 41 and I will compare it for sure... but I have to look for some time for this, because I also want to extend the comparison to include the Sandhill and perhaps the Brauner Phantom... just out of curiosity...

 

[John Goldsby]

So I've now started a first little test round with the Neumann..... and so far I'm quite taken with the little thing...
Unfortunately, the pictures turned out a bit dark, because at least at the beginning the flash in my mobile phone didn't seem to be in the mood................
First impressions of the sound: Not as ‘bassy’ as the Remic, but ‘bassy enough’ and at the same time very nice acoustic and ‘woody’. Without having a direct comparison with the DPA, it sounds a bit like a combination of the "bass-part" of the Remic and the "openness" of the DPA...
It's certainly not noisier than the Remic, but rather less so and doesn't react as ‘sensitively’ to background noise. I can understand that John Goldsby is apparently also quite taken with the Neumann MCM...
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/microphone-stage-for-upright-bass.1579004/page-3#post-26854752

I remember testing the prototype of the Neumann MCM 114 a couple of years ago, and it sounded good. I didn't compare it by playing in a live situation—only solo bass. What I particularly liked was the easy mounting, small footprint on the bass, and sturdy cable and connectors. I didn't buy one though A serious recording microphone like the Schoeps MK41 is better all around for a studio—or any of the other classic studio mics for bass. For live applications, the AKG, DPA, Eartrumpet/Nadine, Audix 20iP (which I use a fair amount) will all "get the job done" if you have a FOH engineer who listens well. In a club or hall, you really need the sound person checking things out from the audience perspective ... it will always sound different to the musicians onstage.

 

[LaFaro01]

I remember testing the prototype of the Neumann MCM 114 a couple of years ago, and it sounded good. I didn't compare it by playing in a live situation—only solo bass. What I particularly liked was the easy mounting, small footprint on the bass, and sturdy cable and connectors. I didn't buy one though A serious recording microphone like the Schoeps MK41 is better all around for a studio—or any of the other classic studio mics for bass. For live applications, the AKG, DPA, Eartrumpet/Nadine, Audix 20iP (which I use a fair amount) will all "get the job done" if you have a FOH engineer who listens well. In a club or hall, you really need the sound person checking things out from the audience perspective ... it will always sound different to the musicians onstage.

By the way... do you remember/can you tell us, what kind of mic you used fore example here?