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Drummer "can't count" right.

#41
I use bite size pieces often myself. If a short phrase is repeated then I find it much easier to count how many repeats. If the music's hot and the house is jumping, chances are I'll get sidetracked by just about everything else by the time the sixteenth bar has come around.

Call them whatever - go rounds, repeats, who cares?
 
#42
Tim de Martino said:
I use bite size pieces often myself. If a short phrase is repeated then I find it much easier to count how many repeats. If the music's hot and the house is jumping, chances are I'll get sidetracked by just about everything else by the time the sixteenth bar has come around.

Call them whatever - go rounds, repeats, who cares?
Click to expand...

Actually I do the same 4 counts on verse etc. My guitarist always reminds me to play with a click track, not that I am doing bad but it will make me even better.
 
#43
Or if you want to start an argument and troll him a little, just show up with this :D:

222-1-500x500.jpg
 
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#44
Sounds to me like the problem isn't number of bars vs. number of repeated phrases ("go-arounds"). The problem is he doesn't get there's a pickup at the beginning. Show it to him, that the phrase doesn't start until note 3 or whatever it is. Then his system of counting phrases not bars works. It's actually easier too, I often count that way.
 
#45
Duuuuude I feel your pain. Drummer in our band is grossly inept at this stuff, and REFUSES to learn it properly, taking pride in being entirely self-taught and doing everything "by feel". Which would be great if he could play anything besides a simple 4/4 without arguing that it is a "wonky riff" and is incorrect. We've had to throw out whole songs because of this guy. And even suggesting seeing an instructor-or a youtube video-offends his ego. I can't kick him out, but I am NEVER starting up a project with a drummer who sees music this way again. Uuuuuuuggghhhh!!!!!!!:banghead:
 
#47
My brain usually counts rounds when only the "broad structure" is needed and bars in the passages that, due to arrangements, requiere so. BUT that only takes place during the learning period for a song. I stop counting and start LIVING it as soon as I can. I'm 42 and at least some methods have evolved/relaxed to prioritize enjoyment. I rarely do any writeup anymore when learning a new song (was obsessive about it just a decade ago). I just learn the parts playing along and then, only if structure is tricky, I map them on a piece of paper, then throw the paper away the moment I'm able to play the song just OK.

So my advice is for your drummer (and you too) to seriously learn the song to the point you all LIVE IT so, no matter how each of you counts, the counting becomes less relevant, you all know when this or that arrangement comes ;-)
 
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#48
@Joe Nerve You bet your dollar that even Led Zep had HUGE problems with this while rehearsing. In spite of Jimmy Pages experience as a veteran and seasoned session players, he is nowhere near John Paul Jones, in education and using proper timing and nomenclature. They had immense problems rehearsing for their 2007 (10 years ago now, time flies) gigs at the London O2 arena. Jimmy says, asks JPJ "Yeah, it's 8 guitar circles isn't it John?" to which JPJ replies "well, whatever, it hasn't ever been right anyway, so why change it now?" Those old friends, has a certain acerbic dialog/wit between them, I think, that they can't really think of. It's second nature to them.

I would misinterpret the drummers "go-arounds" as in a "turn-around" which is altogether different.

Don't try to play Black Dog though. It's impossible to convey, and try to get across the message to play it as if there's no turnarounds. No one gets it, at least the drummers.
 
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#50
I would not mind as long as he got it right, our drummer does not know subdivisions, one day I told him to play 8s note on the kick drum instead of 16s, you should have seen his face, I needed to explain him with: play pump..pump instead of pumpum.
 
#51
jcerio said:
In my band our drummer has an issue with how he counts phrases that cause some confusion with the rest of the band. For example, in any song with a repeating pattern that spans multiple measures he refers to as "go-arounds". The rest of us count in actual measures. If a tune has a four bar phrase and repeats 4 times we will say that is a 16 bar section while he refers to it 4 "go-arounds". While that works ok if everything starts and stops on one, anything like a pickup, or that ends in the middle of a bar causes endless confusion. He has never really had any former musical training, though he has taken lessons over the years.

Once passing the hurdle of making him understand that this is a problem, whatresources are available to help him learn what he is missing?
Click to expand...

Sounds like he needs lessons from a jazz drummer.
 
#52
Depending on what you are doing or plan to do this can (and is likely to) be a huge issue.
Example trying to explain 1 and 2 triple 3 e and a 4quintuple. Is going to be awful. Or trying to explain the hits need to be on the and of 2.. will be extremely frustrating if not everybody in the band is in the same page and communicating the same way.

If he is a great player or there are other reasons to keep him, owns the pa gets the gigs etc.. sit the whole band down and talk through how everybody needs to count the same way. If not to me it's a deal breaker. Or you might add a click track to get you all onto the same page.

There is also nothing worse or confusing than counting in a song or measure at 60 bpm that plays at 90 or 120. Or counts the band in with 1-2-3-4 that is not in 4/4..

I have also found that drummers that do not count tend to play the same 2 or 3 fills every time. As they can not count they don't seem to be able to mix up or vary the fills without mostly tragic results (especially mixing triplets and 8th or 16ths, and rests are always a problem).
 
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#54
Everyone has their own way of counting based on a few points of order, ie, 1-2-3-4, the issue is about hitting the "mark's" in the songs.
This became standardised in to time signatures where the strong beat became identified as the "1".

The problem is two fold, you do not get him remember, so it needs a collective sit down and set some rules on how you will work out timings as a unit.

i play a lot of Blues, i am a trained musician so i come to the level of the level of the other players because i can, i never push the matter, but i do talk about what i am doing to see if any of it "rubs " off on those around me, as i pick up and learn how they feel it.

For example for me simple 12 bar Blues is bar 1 on the C - bar 5 on the F bar - bar 7 on the C bar 9 on the G - bar 10 on the F - bar 11 on the C - bar 12 turnaround.

Now that can be I - IV - I - V and it will mean the same because i already assume basic collective knowledge with the other player, if some added to that "quick 2" i would know how to handle that, as would it be if it was "Always hold the "1" till the vocal starts.

Now that simple Blues can be 1x4 1x2 1x2 1x1 1x1 1x2 or any other variations that can be made to make it work...the thing is collective knowledge shared forms common ground to work on.
 
#60
jcerio said:
In my band our drummer has an issue with how he counts phrases that cause some confusion with the rest of the band. For example, in any song with a repeating pattern that spans multiple measures he refers to as "go-arounds". The rest of us count in actual measures. If a tune has a four bar phrase and repeats 4 times we will say that is a 16 bar section while he refers to it 4 "go-arounds". While that works ok if everything starts and stops on one, anything like a pickup, or that ends in the middle of a bar causes endless confusion. He has never really had any former musical training, though he has taken lessons over the years.

Once passing the hurdle of making him understand that this is a problem, whatresources are available to help him learn what he is missing?
Click to expand...

Can he play well? ... if yes then don't worry about it ...
 
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