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Was in a band years ago..drummer was a one click guy,i dont know how we all did this but just the way he smacked those sticks together told us all what the tempo was ...thinking back it seems like we could all just feel this guys intent just by the harshness or softness of the click.
SORCERY!!!
SORCERY!!!
> Once passing the hurdle of making him understand that this is a problem, whatresources are available to help him learn what he is missing?
Some common sense or a little flexibility from both parties will go a long way here. I don't think go-around is a musical term though so he should be weened off that idea.
Black Dog, I played that one, for the 'weird' pauses you can hear the drum stick single click to signal a new merry go-round!
Some common sense or a little flexibility from both parties will go a long way here. I don't think go-around is a musical term though so he should be weened off that idea.
Black Dog, I played that one, for the 'weird' pauses you can hear the drum stick single click to signal a new merry go-round!
While I have had formal music training, and our drummer took lessons for years, our guitarist is self-taught. The music that we play can be fairly complex. However, the difficulty is not remembering each part (verse, chorus, A, B, C) it is their order and number of times they are repeated.
So I modified my normal chart writing to the example attached, and training or not everyone has learned to follow this example.
Thanks
Only in the arts are people PROUD of their ignorance, and some think ignorance is SUPERIOR to knowledge.
It's even more frustrating when the people you're trying to work with have this condesending attitude when trying to break things down so everyone is on the same page. Very disconcerting when all eyes turn toward you with this look that says, "effin hell, we actually have to communicate?"
The other real frustration is a drummer that's asking what he should play all the time. Even after everyone would tell him that what he was playing was fine or even great. After some time I realized that he was all technique & very little imagination. I think he finally got me replaced which was no skin off my a$$ as I had been trying to leave the hand for a year but everytime I thought it was my last gig another hard to turn down job would surface.
Only loosers count!!!
Beers and pizza first! a hungry drummer is a dangerous one!!!
never ever talk about his girlfriend! even when he is not hungry!
....and bury the keyboarder
just talk to him (but don't forget the pizza!)
may the bass be with you
Wise(b)ass
Obviously, you need to hire an interpreter who can translate from the drummer to the musicians, and vice versa.
Oh, wait, you're the bass player... that's your job.
Oh, wait, you're the bass player... that's your job.
I count kind of like the drummer during a gig. I would lose count during a 16 bar run. 4 4 bar patterns is easier to count.
I guess I don't understand the problem.
I guess I don't understand the problem.
Nothing wrong with "go rounds" for terminology. I call them phrases sometimes. What's missing is a smaller unit. Maybe he could learn to count non playing areas, like 1,2 and Boom.... the brain doesn't need to attach syllables to time, "feel" isn't esoteric, it can be as exacting as counting for the idiot savant (talent) that manages it.
Great thread. I am a drummer AND bass player (yeah yeah, go ahead and say it...) and I usually think in terms of "cycles" or repeated multiple measures of songs, in addition to thinking/counting in measures. Depends on what needs to be addressed.
Having mostly a rock background, thinking "cycles" is sensible and straightforward IMO, as most rock songs repeat these multiple measures in a very predictable way (2x, 4x, or 8x), etc.
I have worked with many guitarists and singers as either a bassist or drummer. I will plan my count-in and say "this song starts on the & of 3, then you guys come in on 1" and gotten blank stares. I am convinced some of these guys NEVER understood what I was saying, even the simple act of a 1 or 2 measure count-in. So it's not just drummers.
Having mostly a rock background, thinking "cycles" is sensible and straightforward IMO, as most rock songs repeat these multiple measures in a very predictable way (2x, 4x, or 8x), etc.
I have worked with many guitarists and singers as either a bassist or drummer. I will plan my count-in and say "this song starts on the & of 3, then you guys come in on 1" and gotten blank stares. I am convinced some of these guys NEVER understood what I was saying, even the simple act of a 1 or 2 measure count-in. So it's not just drummers.
I think part of the issue is everyone "counting" every measure (or go-around, as it were). Practice internalizing the phrases and sections - feel 4 and feel 8 without counting. When those come naturally the oddball sections of six measures or not coming in on 1 start to come naturally too.
I think that kind of thing happens quite often! A lot of players slide by until someone needs to concisely communicate an idea like "hey, that phrase starts on the & of 4" and it takes a month for it to sink in. I play with someone now who is very insistent upon the drummer counting us in to tempo, then starts playing the tune at whatever speed they had in their head.
At least we've all got pretty good day jobs at this point in our lives.
See....Now that's just an insane remark that speaks to the decline of our society.
I mean, you'd take the time to bury a drummer??
i've learned to accept all manner of 'speak' from all levels of trained and untrained players. it doesn't make much difference 'what it's called.' figuring out how to play something together is more than using "correct terminology." sometimes, with drummers, i'm talking "start on the 'e' of 3," and sometimes i'm saying "start a little sooner....even sooner....even sooner than that." if you're dealing with any talent at all: don't sweat the small stuff = take advantage of the big stuff! my .02.
Internalizing multiple bar phrases is what happens naturally once you learn a song. As does not needing to count. I get that. But when you're trying to communicate with others, having a common language helps. Especially when you have long instrumental breaks with nothing to really form a pattern from. For example, the first 20 bars of the first guitar solo in ZZ Top's "Sharp Dressed Man" - pedaling on a C note. Or being able to play a song without the singer present to tighten up parts. Or going through a song the first time to make sure everyone is on the same page. And if not, being able to quickly and easily analyze the problem, communicate, and fix it.
After reading some of the other responses here, I'm realizing even more things - counting the end of bars rather than the beginning, not understanding subdivision of the beat, counting off a different tempo than what the rest of the band plays, unable to play a song without the vocalist present. These are all things that musical training "cures".
How do you tell a 57 year old guy that's been playing for 40 years that he needs to learn the basics of music?
After reading some of the other responses here, I'm realizing even more things - counting the end of bars rather than the beginning, not understanding subdivision of the beat, counting off a different tempo than what the rest of the band plays, unable to play a song without the vocalist present. These are all things that musical training "cures".
How do you tell a 57 year old guy that's been playing for 40 years that he needs to learn the basics of music?
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