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Drummer "can't count" right.

#81
If you want to have some fun, look at your bandmates feet during the middle of a sing, and see which ones are tapping their foot, and which aren't. I find its the ones not keeping tempo that are loose with chord changes and rely on others to cue them for things. Then compare the tapping of your bandmates feet and notice who is not tapping on the beats!

Oh - I've played with guitarists who call out 16 bars for a solo, but when you give them what they asked for they get confused. One song had a 24 bar verse so when the guitarist asked for 16 bars, he meant 24 - the "16 bars" was a generic term to him, not actually counting measures.

You'd be surprised how many self taught musicians don't want a free music lesson in the middle of band practice! ;)
 
#83
lfmn16 said:
Only in the arts are people PROUD of their ignorance, and some think ignorance is SUPERIOR to knowledge. :rollno:
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I disagree - IMHO, all kinds of people take pride in believing their ignorance is superior to knowledge, many of them working in the theological and/or political fields that we don't discuss here because of the (wise & much-needed) rules of Talkbass.
Artists just seem to revel in it to a greater degree.

As for the drummer issue, how musicians count isn't nearly as important as developing a language that everyone understands, and that's one area where proper lessons & formal training really pay off.
 
#85
Your title is misleading it makes it sound like the guy (drummer) has no timing at all ! He does !
He just counts it in his own way ! maybe it's just the way he learned it's what worked for him! as long as he keeps the beat going on time it's what matters! Would you rather have a guy that knows the music language by the book but no timming or the guy that Gets the job done regardless!
Get over it dude!
 
#86
is he holding the group back from whatever goals the group has? is there a problem with his performance? or only with his teminology/methodology?

if the 1st 2 are yes, he needs to change, or the band needs a new drummer. if they're no perhaps the rest of the band needs a look in the mirror?
 
#87
ashtray said:
If you want to have some fun, look at your bandmates feet during the middle of a sing, and see which ones are tapping their foot, and which aren't. I find its the ones not keeping tempo that are loose with chord changes and rely on others to cue them for things. Then compare the tapping of your bandmates feet and notice who is not tapping on the beats!

Oh - I've played with guitarists who call out 16 bars for a solo, but when you give them what they asked for they get confused. One song had a 24 bar verse so when the guitarist asked for 16 bars, he meant 24 - the "16 bars" was a generic term to him, not actually counting measures.

You'd be surprised how many self taught musicians don't want a free music lesson in the middle of band practice! ;)
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It's amazing how much you can tell from musicians' movements without even hearing them play. If somebody doesn't move, chances are his or her timing will be awful. There are exceptions of course. My experience so far hasn't included those exceptions. No foot tap = lousy timing. Worst one is a guitarist I play with who rushes everything. He's like a concrete block most of the time.
 
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#88
jcerio said:
How do you tell a 57 year old guy that's been playing for 40 years that he needs to learn the basics of music?
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I guess I would phrase it to them like "here is a way to get better".
If you can say such things like it is their own idea that they came to, kudos.
I go back and review the basics often myself. Honest self reflection is a good thing.
This takes work and that is how you get better. You could mention to them that you , yourself, do this(?).
"Want to try it?"

Then go from there.
While they may say "yes" initially, it might take some time for things to sink in.
 
#89
Overhead at a rehearsal:

BL: Okay guys, Mustang Sally. Bar 29.

Musician: The middle of the verse?

BL: No. Top of the verse.

Musician: That would be measure 25.

BL: You're forgetting the intro which is bars 1-4.

Musician: Oh, my bad. I had the intro as measures a through d and the opening chorus starting at bar 1.
 
#90
the yeti said:
is he holding the group back from whatever goals the group has? is there a problem with his performance? or only with his teminology/methodology?

if the 1st 2 are yes, he needs to change, or the band needs a new drummer. if they're no perhaps the rest of the band needs a look in the mirror?
Click to expand...

He is a skilled drummer. His lack of training is evident in certain areas. It makes picking up new songs take longer. The first reason being that it's harder to pick up the nuances of your part and second to be able to communicate with other musicians. Especially if you disagree on the timing of a part. If he only spoke a foreign language, is it my responsibility to learn that language and then translate for the rest of the group? Maybe in the short term, but not forever!
 
#91
jcerio said:
Once passing the hurdle of making him understand that this is a problem, whatresources are available to help him learn what he is missing?
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Unless you find a way to convince US what your problem with his count is, I doubt you'll convince him. "Four go-rounds" of a four bar phrase is plenty easy for me to understand, and would be even easier in the context of the song. I agree with elgecko, that unless I have charts in standard notation to which I can refer calling "take it from the 24th measure" means nothing to me. I'd rather have someone say "take it from the top of the bridge" or whatever. And yes ... I was formally trained.
 
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#92
RustyAxe said:
Unless you find a way to convince US what your problem with his count is, I doubt you'll convince him. "Four go-rounds" of a four bar phrase is plenty easy for me to understand, and would be even easier in the context of the song. I agree with elgecko, that unless I have charts in standard notation to which I can refer calling "take it from the 24th measure" means nothing to me. I'd rather have someone say "take it from the top of the bridge" or whatever. And yes ... I was formally trained.
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Most times verse, chorus, bridge, intro, outro, the "e" or "and" or "a" of beat 1,2,3,or 4 isn't understood. I'm having trouble working with that. It ends up being especially vexing for our lead singer as she only has real music experience singing. If read music but don't play an instrument a lot of the "patterns" and "go-arounds" are kind of meaningless. I'm really here to find some resources to suggest he take a look at.
 
#93
lfmn16 said:
Only in the arts are people PROUD of their ignorance, and some think ignorance is SUPERIOR to knowledge. :rollno:
Click to expand...
Dunning-Kruger syndrome once again.
Florence Foster Jenkins the most recent, and famous one. Due to the film last year.
I agree, only in the arts. Well...ok then, save for president Tr...OOOPSS!!!!
1f914.png
 
#94
I recall singer Fish from old prog stalwarts Marillion had huge problems with drummers. He publicly said in an interview that their first drummer Mick Pointer (on their first album) was lousy, and didn't ever got better at it no matter how much he tried. They went through 3-4 drummers before they settled on someone he liked, Ian Mosley.
The verdict (natural fire the drummer) was so bad that Pointer stopped playing at all for 10 years almost. Now, when seeing their very early live shows on YouTube, and listening to their first album (the very first one), you can hear the struggling and actually hear that the drummer is counting without even seeing his mouth or listen to some leaking microphone. You hear that by his playing, that "oh dear, there's a drummer who just counts". He did music by the numbers. ONLY! And prog, with its 5/4 time signatures and so on... it's even harder. A Linn drum machine from the 80s would've swung better.

The reason I know of this, is that the interviewer - due to lousy telephone line, and Fish's thick scottish accent - misheard the name Mick Pointer, as Mike Portnoy, and all hell broke loose over the internet forums. He actually wrote down "mike portnoy" instead. It wasn't Fish's fault, but the interviewer had to make an apology on his next edition of whatever magazine it was.

Would love to have these drummers trying to do any of Philip Glass's works. See how long they can count inside their heads before they loose track of if they "said" 2349 or 2350...

I have had several experiences with drummers that can't do a count in right even. They even waver in tempo when the 1-2-3-4 comes...and then when they start playing it is a different tempo than then count in was... and when pointing this out, they still don't get it, or hear it. And if someone else does that countdown, jeez...they were just sooooo off. Huge double-bass-drum kit equipped drummers, and a full octave of toms, and emptied the local music stores cymbal stash.;)
 
#95
jcerio said:
He is a skilled drummer. His lack of training is evident in certain areas. It makes picking up new songs take longer. The first reason being that it's harder to pick up the nuances of your part and second to be able to communicate with other musicians. Especially if you disagree on the timing of a part. If he only spoke a foreign language, is it my responsibility to learn that language and then translate for the rest of the group? Maybe in the short term, but not forever!
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afaik none of it is your responsibility, but it sounds like you already know what he's saying based on your original description.

are you in a position of responsibility with this group? is he holding the group back?
 

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