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Dumb question: Pino doesn't read music?

Reading music is very valuable if you want to write music. It's an easy way to share ideas and be certain you're on the same page. Things that take a long time to write out or say can be conveyed so much more quickly in musical notation- for example, in two simple measures (just half a line of music!) I can write out:
"Key of G, three beats per measure; for the intro, wait a beat, play C (the one on the 5th fret of your G string) and hold for two counts, and then we'll start the main song with a G chord, drop to the 3rd fret of your E string and play R/3/5/7/8/5 on half counts then repeat just those 6 notes again."

And there's the bonus of being able to see what's going on even if you don't have an instrument with you. While reading music may not be strictly necessary, it saves time and is very convenient.
 
I was advised awhile ago that having a solid handle on music theory matters more than being a good reader. Of course, it's best to know both, but...

As time went on, I found this to be true. My inability to read fluidly never cost me a gig. (Chord charts are relatively easy.) At the end of the game, you have to be able to deliver the music, however you do it. Still, I yearn to be a better reader.

Pino is a made man on the international music scene, with the hits to prove it. A producer hires him for what he CAN do, not what he can't.
 
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THIS.

It's not that I can't comprehend a foreign language. My masters degree is in Semitic Languages. I worked with Northwest Semitic languages (Canaanite, proto-Canaanite, Tyrian/Bibylian Phoenician, Moabite, Amorite, taught koine Greek for a year to college students, and Hebrew (biblical, rabbinic and modern) for years. I can tell if a dialect is Moabite or Hebrew by the use of a verb. I can navigate the proto-Canaanite A to O shift and fully decline pretty much anything I want from any binyan or shoresh, but I cannot read music. Languages aren't the same for me as music; languages draw easily from one part of my brain, whereas music, art, poetry come from an entirely different an unrelated part of my brain. The two parts don't communicate with each other very well, in fact, they're not even on speaking terms anymore.

This is exacerbated by the fact that I was entirely self-taught on bass. I learned it by ear based on patterns on the fingerboard, so when I think of a song, I think of sets of polygonic patterns that make up the song. I learned the Intro to 2112's Overture as: A to D string - straight vertical line (E -A), Pause. Go to G string then D and make a scalene triangle (C - G - D). When I play Dream Theater's "Dance of Eternity" I subconsciously think "Oh, here's that oven shaped pattern" or "Here's that sawtooth pattern that drops into that gun-shaped pattern." I screw up when I can't recall the pattern. So I have my patterns from basic shapes (boxes - D - E - G - A, triangles) to more advanced ones (sawtooth - F - B - E / D - Ab -Db, ), to completely crazy ones (sailboats, guns, etc.) It all depends. Of course I can take the pattern and break it (the square of D - E - G -A might be played with open strings, or on one string, or whatever. But the patterns never go away, unless I forget them. But these are real notes on the real fingerboard. They make sound when I invoke them - it's very physical, non analytical, and immediate.

Now, take my way of thinking (polygons) and throw a sheet of music in front of me. Sure, I know that all cows eat grass - but the note patterns on the staff are completely different. Alien. Not bass-like. I now have to deal with another language, a language that is instrument agnostic, completely UNLIKE everything on my fingerboard and translate them, on the fly, deciphering rests, stops, dotted notes, bars, etc. and take this data to the fingerboard, an environment that looks nothing like the staff. For me, this takes away from any direct "ear to emotions" pleasure because now I've got to activate the analytical part of my brain to a very high degree to decipher squiggles, bars, dots, lines, etc. - all abstractions - and play them. This is so different from my goofy way that doesn't utilize abstractions, but uses patterns that really exist on the fingerboard itself.

I think that's it for me.

Now, is this a problem? It can be. For certain, as mentioned earlier in this thread, my inability to read has cost me numerous opportunities, and I regret that. I wish I could read. People ask me to teach them bass, and I won't because I don't want to pass along my bad habits. I tell people to find a good teacher with a solid knowledge of theory and who can read music and do it right from the start - that way, they might be able to say "Yes, I'll be there" for a studio session opportunity instead of "Sorry, I've I learned my own idiosyncratic method for bass playing that is no one else knows and I'll be practicing at home that day" as I've done.

But it isn't ALL a problem. Yes, there are tabs (of variable quality), which is almost what I am doing in my own polygonic style, but some of my most interesting stuff has resulted from my INability to read and be influenced by what I see - and having to rely SOLELY upon what I hear. For instance, in an original piece, there's a section our keyboardist wrote out. The band played it and recorded it for me to learn, so I'm listening to it and hear a melody in my head.

Hit one a string E note. Now hit an open E. Next, hit a harmonic of G-C-F on the D -G -C strings (I've a six string), let it sustain and hit a C on the A string then B then C quickly. Next line. Repeat the Intro with the E's, hit the harmonic chord but don't sustain it, mute it) go to E string and hit B - A - B then repeat. Much to my surprise I later learned the section was written in Am. The knowledge that it was in Am might have influenced me to have done something chained to an Am instead of what I, in my ignorance, came up with, which doesn't make use of A except as a single quick 8th note for contrast. This happens quite a bit. I write my lines purely by ear, and my ear doesn't care what key it's in - it hears what it hears and is blind to what is written - then I play it and it becomes a pattern, followed by more patterns, until it's finished. This doesn't always work, but it's served me pretty well and (I think) has caused me to think in ways that are not bound so tightly.

This whole "one part of the brain" thing really seems to sum up my failure to be able to read music. For me it's a personal deficiency. I can either analyze, break down and study (languages for instance), or I can hear it, see the pattern, the color (of course patterns have colors - right? lol) and feel it emotively, immediately and fully without consciously thinking about it. I can't combine analysis (data decipherment) and emotion (art) to any high degree. I know a lot of people can, or they see the analysis as emotive, I'm not one of them. I play music for the emotion of it - right at the moment it's happening, I read Ahiram for the non-emotive mental challenge of it.

Fascinating post. I've long felt that the greatest masters (Coltrane; John McLaughlin, etc.) were folks who had exceptional skills both in the way of theory and intuition, and in equipoise with each other. And even though I was a pro trombonist and could read well enough for commercial session work (but am lame on classical material that requires alto and tenor clef), I far favored the intuitive, reactive side - so much so, that for several years of practice I resisted "theory" and patterns, but worked on tone, playing in all keys, and a wide range of interval patterns, with the theory that I should have my ears and chops as open as possible to react to whatever was going on around me when improvising. Or maybe I was just lazy? Who knows…but it worked for me, for a while. And lately I'm challenging myself to clear the rust off of my reading chops…humbling, but rewarding.

That said, I don't think you're consigned to a lifetime of solely visualizing polytonic structures, if you wish to go somewhere else with your comprehension of music (and I have no doubt that you're already doing valid and interesting stuff with your existing skill set).

Join a chorus, or just take some singing lessons.

You would likely pick reading up quickly if you were singing melodic lines, and your polygonic patterns are entirely irrelevant to what you're doing.

Get those brain hemispheres talking to each other again!

Best of luck.
 
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IMHO, you really need to be able to read at least quarter notes / eighth notes fairly fluently if you're going to take bass playing seriously. You don't need to be able to sightread "Flight of the Bumblebee", but really need to have the ability to talk in a language comprehended by musicians all over the world. It's really not hard.
 
Tremendously so. Once I've charted something, I don't care how many times or where to a singer decides they want to change the key. Off we go!
That's the thing, though- key changes on a piano are scary (at least for beginners) but key changes on a bass are dead simple- just shift your root and play the same scale block. Chord changes are always the same interval as before.

There are a lot of times when reading music doesn't matter- following chords and playing standard R/5/8 lines- even improvising off chords. But there are times when being able to read music, even slowly, is really helpful.
 
I remember reading an interview with Pino years ago. I believe he said he can't read, but he can listen to a song once and then know it. So all of you who can memorize and play back any song with one listening, you are in good company. The rest of you... Aren't Pino.
I am in that camp-
but I gotta tell you, this is due to a ton of active listening sessions of all sorts of music. I believe it can be developed.
I may have been born with the seed but I still needed to bring it to harvest.
 
I wish I could read sooo much! any of you saying it's not important are crazy in my opinion. it took me two evenings to read & listen to Beautiful Love before I had it down. It should have only taken 3 minutes to read it and be waaay ahead of the curve. 2 nights to learn a tune is out of control.
 
Artistry and creativity ooze out of some players routinely. Why is this? How can you best foster healthy learning environments to improve and build on your own skills? It starts with communication and the desire to contribute something, anything to a blank canvas. Often times songs require a bass part, and you are asked to compose one. Sometimes you are asked to read a part, bringing your musical interpretation to the forefront. Regardless of which option you are confronted with, a solid backround of listening, combined with performance, combined with technique will render successful musical situations. Pino mentions Stravinsky as an influence. Who are you listening to? We are all products of our listening environments. I try to listen to something new every day, followed by something not so new. The new music teaches me a new color, vibe, via a harmonic progression and the accompanying bass part. This greatly influences me with options or possibilities. Mind you, influence, imitation is how we all learn. To break new ground, that's where the artistry and creativity come in. Improvise regularly and play along with tracks that are minus bass. See if you can come up with cool parts that contribute to the music the best way you see and hear fit. It's all a process. Why learn how to read? It's a way music ideas are communicated. Why not learn how to read..
 
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jnuts1, don't give up. Reading music is a skill, and takes practice. You're not only learning a whole new writing convention, you're also mentally mapping it to your instrument, and it takes time and practice to do this. There's plenty of material online to get you the bare bones- knowing if you're going up or down the scale and how to read intervals and duration. Then spend five minutes or so, every day, practicing reading music and it will come eventually.
 
i heard some of us say it's harder to read in bass clef. why not transpose it to treble clef?
Because nothing you'll be reading will be transposed like that. You could read something written for treble and play it two octaves lower, but that sort of misses the point.

It's not really that the bass clef is harder than the treble clef, it's just used by fewer instruments, and, therefore, less familiar. Kids taking their first music class and playing a recorder will be reading treble clef. I was lucky- I learned piano, so I learned to read both.
 
Well, Stevie Wonder can't read music either, but then again he's not a session musician

For me my "sight reading" usually consists of looking at the guitar players neck to see what chord he is playing. I only refer to sheet music when I can't learn a song by ear. Also so much sheet music / chord charts / tabs are wrong that I find it best to have a good ear.
 
Some of the comments remind me about the following discussion:

"My grandfather SMOKED and he was 90-year old when he died.
I don't believe that smoking kills."


Out of MILLIONS of bass players in the world, we take a VERY FEW GEMS - EXTREMELY gifted musicians and try to rationalize our inability (or even our willingness) to read and understand music.

Pino Palladino: Bass Superman

"One of the most respected and admired bass players in music today, Pino Palladino has such an array of amazing bass chops and feel that it's almost ridiculous.
Pino's ability to fit his unique style into any type of music and not only make it work but make sound great is a rare skill indeed.
The complete package, he can make it funky, melodic and anything in between all the while serving the song perfectly...
"Pino Palladino is probably the most sought after bassist in music today and for good reason. His chops, technique, and musical insticts are unparalleled in the industry."
Read here:
http://fenderbassplayer.com/101-pino-palladino-bass-superman
 
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No particular relevance to the topic of reading music or not reading it, but I'm reminded of a Russian joke about a Chukchi (a member of an indigenous people populating the eastern-most extremities of Siberia, who are often the butt of jokes in Russia) who shows up at the prestigious Writers' Union in Moscow to request entry into the union. The Writers' Union rep asks him a few questions to ascertain his background in Russian literature: "Have you read Tolstoy?" "Chukchi not read Tolstoy," came the answer. "What works by Dostoevsky have you read?" "Chukchi not read Dostoevsky," was the reply. "How about Solzhenytsin?" "Chukchi not read Solzhenytsin." And so on... Finally, in frustration, the examiner asked "Well, what have you read? The applicant replied: "Chukchi not reader, Chukchi writer."
 
the thing I dont understand is the people who plays for 20+ years and still cant read: guys, it is not so hard!
In fact, the vast mayority of bass parts are usually pretty simple to read, and learning to read at a beginner level doesnt take more than a couple of months of work.

Really cant understand the people who spend years learning an instrument and neglect such an interesting and not-so-hard part of the craft.
 
For around 15 years I made a tidy supplemental annual income with a roster of 20 weekly students (guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, ukulele). My students younger than age 16 were required to make sight reading and formal music education part of their lesson and weekly practice routine. The other part of the lesson was ear training and more "outside the book" intuitive learning. I felt a combination of the two was healthy, and my students stayed with me for 3+ years on average. Some of them have gone on to do some pretty amazing things with their music.

Here's my take on learning to read in standard notation and formal music education fundamentals:

It's a learning curve, and you have to be up for it, motivated, and committed. It's not wrong to admit you're just not that into it and proceed to make yourself happy and productive with your instrument without formal music education. So I would never chastise anyone forgoing that step.

At the same time, I feel duty-bound to encourage giving it a really good sustained effort, just to see what happens. I know from personal experience as a musician and from observing my students that you quickly reach a point where you really start to feel empowered, like learning a language, and it has a marked positive influence on your musicianship even when you're not reading music.

Like changing your diet and getting more exercise, this is a personal decision and there is no right or wrong, even if the doctors and exercise enthusiasts feel compelled to tell you what you're missing.
 
Thanks electracoyote, your post reminded me of a few things

At 19 I had been playing pro for 3 yrs but couldn't read. I was so cocky I thought that standard notation was just jive, too silly/complicated and devised by monks centuries before - surely I could figure out a better method - geez the audacity of youth

But, I sucked and started figuring that out as well. So, over a period of about 6 months I taught myself with books to read. I still struggle sometimes because of being self taught.

But, with that skill developed I could take correspondence courses from Berklee SOM (this was long before the interwebs) and my playing jumped from barely passable to confident and competent within 2 years.

Certainly worth the effort.

Tonight I will practice Bach (again) not sure which instrument, DB, EB, classical guitar or cello, hum?
 
In my experience most readers can only read and most people who can listen to changes and create amazing bass parts on their own can't read.
It's almost as if the majority of players' brains only work one way or the other.
Exceptional musicians can do both and deserve the additional work they get for it, but they're few and far between.

Ridiculous.

I've made my living playing music for the last nearly 30 years. To say your experience runs counter to mine is an absolute understatement. In fact, most of the musicians I've worked with who couldn't read were also the worst improvisors.
 
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